Hormone Stew…Puberty & “Second Puberty”!

Sarah Milken  00:00

So let's talk about shame stigma and all those things when it comes to puberty and it relates to menopause too, because as the menopause narrative is shifting a little bit and we're talking about our drive vaginas and our sweat Enos and all that stuff. We're also getting into talking about puberty more openly. Hey, peeps, welcome to the flexible neurotic podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Milken. Yeah, you heard that right. I'm a real PhD doctor. Long, long ago, like last fucking year. I was sitting in the midlife funk wondering, was this it for me? That day, I realized I needed to get off my ass and start my midlife remix. I dusted off my PhD wipe the menopause, sweat off my forehead, grabbed my golden shit shovel and started digging deep to all my midlife bitches. It's not just luck, coffee and hormones that get you through your midlife remix. It's action steps. Let's do this. Hey, good pee. It's me. Dr. Sarah Milken, the flexible neurotic and this is the flexible neurotic podcast today is going to be hormones do I hope you're ready? You know how we're always talking about the life changes of midlife and menopause. And you know, I have two teenagers, and today is going to be some puberty talk and how three midlife women my two guests and myself all manage all of our kids with our own fucking moods at the same time. Today I have to midlife hotties who are two of the biggest experts in the field of teens and puberty. Don't you just want to crawl under the table when you hear that word? puberty? I do. And my kids are 17 and 19. My first guest is a pediatrician and the New York Times bestselling author of the Karen keeping view series, more than 7 million copies in print guys stuff and decoding boys of graduate of Harvard College and Johns Hopkins medical school, and she co founded order of magnitude a company dedicated to flipping puberty positive. She co hosts the puberty podcast co authors the awkward roller coaster newsletter and founded worry proof MD she lives in Los Angeles with her husband and one high school senior and one kid in college. Her name is Cara natters, who we just said hi. And now for my other favorite person, her business partner. This hottie I interviewed two years ago on the podcast, we laughed our asses off. We got into all things puberty. manscaping porn, awkward chats and parenting blunders, Cara you're lucky you miss that conversation. She is the founder of Dynamo girl a company focused on building kids self esteem through sports, puberty, education and parent workshops. She runs all media order of magnitude a company dedicated to flipping puberty positive. She co hosts if you ready podcast with Cara, and she hosts conversations on parenting and beyond at the JCC Manhattan and writes the uncertain parenting newsletter with Cara about the messy process of raising tweens and teens. She's a graduate of Wellesley College. She holds a Master's from the Jewish Theological Seminary, we could have used Yoneyama Kapoor and she lives in Northern Westchester with her husband and three kids at home and one in college. Correct? Yeah, you guys, I'm so happy to have you here. My first question for you. Wait, can

03:41

we just tell you that we're so happy to be here and we love you? And you confuse every awkward conversation with joy and humor? And it's a blast?

Sarah Milken  03:50

How about thank you so much. And my kids are just like TMI and please leave. Yeah,

03:55

well, they can come hang out with us. And they'll say TMI and I

Sarah Milken  03:59

know Oh, please mice my son's like, Thank God she like I'm away at college. Except I still keep sending him like messages and yeah, at least I see the Read Receipts. Yeah, that's how I get through college basically. Yeah, yeah, I'm we're gonna ask you guys your tips.

04:15

You're in the first month so

Sarah Milken  04:19

joy. So these two hotties I'm just going to show for the people who can see this. wrote this fat book. This is so awkward. Modern puberty. Explain Everything about this is awkward, right? The book is so good being the nerd that I am. I read the digital version because this book didn't show up until last night before the podcast and I'm such a fucking geek that I had needed to read this before I interviewed you. I love the science nuggets because I'm a nerd. I love the real life stories because it makes it real and I love the stories from the kids and the real life puberty experiences. It was just kind of like the perfect match. Next have nerd and really experience and information and fun. Thanks so cute. Thank you so good. Cara and Vanessa, I can safely say that the three of us are in the throes of perimenopause, menopause, wherever you are on that spectrum, right? Oh, yeah.

05:21

I think we are a spectrum. I would guess if so I'm carrying.

Sarah Milken  05:25

I'm 40. Yeah, but I'm on birth control pills. So I don't really know where exactly I

05:30

am. Yeah, I'm in the early stages. And the way I know that, I mean, I'm sorry to everyone listening, but like, all of a sudden, I have Bo like my 13 year old son. And it's like, yeah, nowhere.

Sarah Milken  05:42

You know, what's funny is last night, I was recording a podcast and I was like, Do I smell? It's weird. And then when you have to use natural deodorant,

05:50

I use natural. No, I have to because regular deodorant gives me a rash. And so I basically don't use deodorant. Like, it doesn't work.

Sarah Milken  05:59

Yeah, yeah. And then it's like you have like these wet these

06:03

cars about to go on eight weeks of book tour with me just like, feel sad for I'm gonna I'm actually gonna live with a rash under my arms and use any branches so cars

06:12

suffer white socks under your armpit. You know, I'm just going to represent the crowd that is fully in menopause. Okay, I'm ready. Okay, so

Sarah Milken  06:24

you haven't had a period? You're good in over a year?

06:27

No. Yeah, I'm right. Yeah, yeah, there. I'm hot flashing and you know, the whole thing.

Sarah Milken  06:35

So you're in your second. Okay. Yeah. So you're in your second puberty?

06:38

Yes. And, and. And it feels just as good.

Sarah Milken  06:45

unwanted hairs, nipple hairs, weird chin hair, brain fog,

06:53

my sister in law and I just promised each other that we will be the person to show up and pluck the chin hair. Oh, absolutely matter what.

07:04

It's the man of cause version of spinach in your teeth. Like to let people know that. Why

Sarah Milken  07:08

don't suddenly one day just be this really long hair. Like, like you haven't been noticing.

07:15

It's because your eyes have gotten so bad that

Sarah Milken  07:20

I shouldn't say this because my husband actually listens to my podcast or he would get in trouble. But the other day he had this like really long hair coming out of his ear. And I was like, you trim your nose hairs in your ear hairs. And he goes it's so weird because my hair dries are usually like trims in there. Yeah, there was this one here that I felt like was down to his elbow.

07:42

Broke hair. Yeah, I

Sarah Milken  07:43

know. It's like that's so nasty. I was like, I also

07:45

take issue with the fact that the nose hair trimmer and the ear hair trimmer are interchangeable. And I know we can talk about the size of that. But it's just not that's not great hygiene.

Sarah Milken  07:59

I know. I know. We'll just put you know what that's in his drawer. And that's

08:04

Mike. Anyways, so add it to the list of things they do. That's yeah, like it's just not my problem. And you know what's great as my husband doesn't listen to our podcast and he won't listen to this podcast so I could theoretically say whatever I want what

Sarah Milken  08:20

he does, but he does floss which is good. i He's

08:22

an excellent floss. Excellent floss. He's an excellent flosser. And like I took me well into adulthood to become a regular

Sarah Milken  08:32

flying or twice. I'm a twice a day floss well with

08:35

receding gums Yes, you have to become a 3d

08:39

the only guy from the UK who is a religious philosopher. He has

08:44

beautiful teeth. I somehow managed to marry an English that's good. Gorgeous and I have terrible teeth. I have Mike my mouth is filled with cavities and crowns and root canals and I married a man with like, superior teeth jeans.

Sarah Milken  09:02

Do you know that? I don't have one thing in my mouth. Don't say it. Don't say no. But and you know what's really funny is my dad's a dentist. Yeah, my dad's a dentist who didn't need it. And but nobody it's not like because your dad's a dentist you have like healthy teeth it was just totally random. I mean the guy eats gummy bears himself and doesn't even brush his teeth and

09:23

it's genetic. I am terrible teeth genetics. I've wonderful other qualities. I was so

Sarah Milken  09:27

happy when someone when the dentist like told my husband and he had something wrong with his gums and he needed to go to a periodontist because I feel like all the issues are mine. Like, oh, Sarah, you have high cholesterol. Sarah, your vagina is on fire, or whatever. I was like, See, I don't have receding gum. Okay, we're in second puberty. We knew that had to set the stage for that. When I was reading your book, and when we had that conversation the first time Vanessa, you told that amazing story about your first period. Can you share that with everyone?

10:00

Oh, yes. And it's it's actually in the it's even in the book.

Sarah Milken  10:04

I know. That's why I said that I

10:05

wrote it in. So I was. So the average age for a first period these days is 12 years and three months, which is only a few months earlier than it was when I was going through puberty. Let How old am I 47. And I was so about 35 years ago, I got my first period, almost no, not almost exactly. I thought we were in the month of April. But it's What month is it? Oh, here's

10:35

tip there. Yeah. So

10:38

I got my period on April Fool's Day. Oh, I don't think that details in the book. I took a modern dance class with all the girls from my town. And I borrowed someone's tight because we were at a sleepover. And they were like pearlescent pink tights and modern dance. I don't know for those of you don't know you. They were stirrups. They were like but we the cool thing to do was to like take the stirrups off your feet. So I was in like pearlescent pink tights, and some leotard I don't supervise

Sarah Milken  11:13

you didn't have a yeast infection just from the fabric of those.

11:18

I trust me the yeast infection situation has taken me many years to solve. And I'm sure those types did not help. Well, you

Sarah Milken  11:25

could solve that with vaginal estrogen. I'm an expert on that now.

11:29

Oh, we'll get we can get to it. In our next episode, we discuss vaginal estrogen. Anyways, I go to the bathroom after dance class and I looked down and there's like this brown goop in these tights. And at first, my first thought was, oh, she lent me tights that have like, crap in them. And then I was like, no, no, no, no, I was like, I know what this is. This is my period. And then I had to figure out how to take the tights off and ball them up and throw them secretly in like a girls locker room. Bathroom. And there was none of the little bins, you know, in the stall, so I had to like, secretly take it out and like throw it in the communal garbage without anyone. And then I don't even know how I explained why she didn't get her tights back because those were coveted.

Sarah Milken  12:20

Yeah, tights. Yeah, we had like Shelley's dance here. I feel like that's like the kind of thing where you like go in there. It's a special tie. You have Yeah, find that?

12:31

Yeah. Yes. So that was my first period story. I had an older sister. So I knew like, I knew I had a mom and talked about all of it. So

Sarah Milken  12:41

I see my mom never talked about anything did yours, which is why you talk about every Oh, I know

12:48

that my mom never talked about anything. Yeah. But she, if you if she was on the podcast right now, she would be so sure. She talks about everything. And the reason I don't blame her for it is I think that's really common among parents like that. The conversations that you've had in your head with yourself or other people, sometimes you translate them into reality. So like, I used to ask kids in my practice all the time, if they've had the talk, which isn't really a thing anymore, because it's 1000 talks, but if they've had the talk with their parent, and the kids would be like, No, we've never talked about anything like this. And he would ask the parents and they're like, Oh, yes, we had this. We were sitting this is what we were talking about. And I don't know if the parents were in lala land, or if the everything just washed over the kids. So, you know, it's possible that my mom talked to me about it.

Sarah Milken  13:39

Mine did not my brain was not receptive. Mine did not does not and listen to my podcast in his like, I love you And where the fuck did you come from? But I will say my dad, just I mean, I didn't talk to him about sex, but he's like a very kind of like, funny TMI ish person. So we go at least there's like, some genetic quality to it. And my brother is like this, too. So it's sort of like, my mom is the outlier, which is kind of good. You know, because she's, she's perfect, you know? Yeah.

14:15

I'm picturing your mom listening this conversation. I want feedback from your mom after conversation for sure.

Sarah Milken  14:20

I mean, she texts me and she's like, wow, what's happening here? Okay, and Cara, you didn't have an amazing period story. I didn't either. But you know, Cara has a great. I thought you were just haunted by your brother for having no boobs.

14:34

Yes, you're so flat. too jealous. That is true. That is true. I have three brothers. Yes, that is true. But no, my I just don't talk about it. Because I think Vanessa's is a little bit better. But you decide. I got my period on my 14th birthday. Which was while the Oscars were airing that wait for it gets better. It gets better as Shirley MacLaine was accepting her Oscar for Terms of Endearment which my entire family was watching together for the first time since my parents had split up, so my parents were reuniting and doing like a trial date with the entire family. And I am sitting there in my white you Team USA. It was 1984. tracksuit because it was the Olympics coming to LA. And my parents were managing their stuff and my brothers were taunting me and I stand up in my white tracksuit,

Sarah Milken  15:34

that's such an amazing story.

15:35

Layers, layers upon layers,

Sarah Milken  15:39

and you were wearing polyester fabric. So you were suing ease infection.

15:44

Yes. Although, you know, it was 1984. So the parachute style Well, guy are you

Sarah Milken  15:51

have ventilation much? Yes. So let's talk about shame, stigma, and all those things when it comes to puberty. And it relates to menopause, too, because as the menopause narrative is shifting a little bit and we're talking about our drive vaginas and our sweat Enos and all that stuff. We're also getting into talking about puberty more openly. So Cara, why don't you tell us the difference between the old puberty and the new puberty? Okay.

16:26

So, when, when I say the word puberty, what do you binge cringe? Right? What do you think about most people think about the sexual maturation process, right? So it's like, the narrow, traditional definition of puberty is, the steps necessary to one day, potentially have the ability to make a baby to be part of a baby making? Pair? Okay, that's all it means. It involves very specific hormones, those hormones are the sex hormones, they are estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. And everyone has some of all of that just in different balances depending on their genetics. Okay. The new definition of puberty. And the definition that Vanessa and I use, as the premise of our book, our podcast, everything we put out into the world is that everything connected to those sex hormones, deserves to fall under the circus tent of the word puberty. So estrogen and progesterone and testosterone absolutely make you physically mature. But they also impact your moods. They impact your entire emotional existence, that impacts your social experience, your friendships, your relationships, your family dynamics. So you can't talk about puberty, in this tiny little bubble anymore. You really need to talk about puberty in a much bigger context, which makes it essentially synonymous with adolescence. It's what we used to call adolescence, the emotional and social experience. And so the only difference is puberty now starts so early starts, right starts between eight and nine for the average girl between nine and 10, for the average boy, and it stretches out all the way through high school for most kids. So puberty went from being the little narrow term and adolescence was broader to flipping where adolescence is now the narrower term, and puberty encompasses everything from beginning of the tween years, through the end of the teen years. For most kids.

Sarah Milken  18:39

It's kind of like menopause and perimenopause. It's like 8000 fucking years that don't end. And there's always new additions

18:47

it and it's an ever changing definition. So like, one person might be talking about menopause and meeting one thing, and another person might be talking about a meeting another and so you have to define your terms. Right. And that's so I appreciate you asking that. Yeah,

Sarah Milken  19:01

it's like, it's just feels like a very long clusterfuck. Because for us having kids, like we always thought, okay, as soon as you have pubic hair, you're in puberty. As soon as you have breast buds, you're in puberty, and you guys are like, no, no, no, no,

19:17

it is a long, long as they say, in history, the world is a long journey. But that in some ways, I'm gonna we're gonna go constructive and positive here. We're gonna go upside here there. Yeah. First of all, you get better at parenting kids through puberty, and you have like, a long time to get better at it. So it's not like, oh, I have this chance. And now it's over. And now they're done. And, you know, I, you have like, nearly a decade of caring for kids through puberty, which means when you mess up, you can go back and say, Hey, dude, I screwed this up. I I am going to take a do over. And kids love nothing more than when we admit to messing up to my God. And so there's that part of it. Also, our kids have time to kind of get used to what it feels like being in puberty because it is a wild wild ride. And the more we can reassure them and be like, we're here, we got this, you can do this, I can do this. Then with each passing year, they're all of a sudden, like, okay, I can handle this, because that's really ultimately what we want them to feel is like, yeah, it's an up and down and all over the place. It is a total shit show. But like, if they know we've got them, and we believe in them, and we're gonna give them information and care for them thoughtfully and empathetically.

Sarah Milken  20:50

They're gonna feel when you think they're not listening, they really are 100 Emily, not so sacked. And you guys talk about that, too. So basically, puberty is the new puberty starts younger, lasts longer, and is aided and abetted by social media gray. Yay.

21:09

Correct. And that layer. I mean, Sarah, that layer is a big, that's a huge want change for people caring for kids. And it is a constant, constant battle, I call it a battle. And we are we do not demonize social media. I mean, listen, all of us use social media for work. We believe in it. We believe in its power to disseminate good information, not just bad information. It's a great way for kids to socialize. It's a great way for kids to connect with friends and peers all over the country. It's there's a lot of good stuff. And it requires constant vigilance on the part. It's

Sarah Milken  21:49

like a kid or you know, where all their friends are because of the location they sit if they're invited to a party, like we used to find out about it two days later now,

21:58

Monday morning in school, not anymore. Now, you know, no, like, I'm

Sarah Milken  22:02

sitting at home, and that fucking party is happening. And I'm at home.

22:06

Yeah, but also people find people like them, you're in a marginalized community of some sort. There are lots of people like you in the world. And you can connect with them and find community and build support. You know, whether you're talking about a kid who's LGBTQ plus, or you're talking about a kid who's coming from a home where there's some aggression, or some violence or whatnot, like their communities that are safe places for these kids. And you look at the upsides of social media, and they are not discountable. And so and there was a report that came out from Common Sense Media this week talking about, yes, all of that is true. But the problem is social media is tapping on the shoulder of kids all day, every day and all night, every night to the tune of I think was like two, the average number of notifications a day is 243, I think, and there were some kids who are getting 1000s of them. And so it's some of it is the content, good and bad. Some of it is just that the constant barrage, you know, we can talk about sleep, but like, how do you sleep? And the the information stream that not news for them? The social information stream is

Sarah Milken  23:25

like dopamine hits all day long, correct? All day long. I mean,

23:30

did you notice they're like kids don't watch movies anymore. Like they don't want to sit down and watch a full movie. Now, we have now reached the stage where their children were like acquire movies. Yes. We require movies because they have to put their phones away. Yes, they have to put their phones away. And they have to watch a movie good parent, and then to talk to us about what they have. Just how often

Sarah Milken  23:57

do you get to do this once a year Vanessa?

24:00

No. I mean, listen, in COVID, my husband had like a whole plate. He had a whole education for kids about the movies they needed to watch. And by the way, some of the movies we watched and loved as kids are shocking. They're not hold up. But now we it's a it's by committee, and we choose movies together. But I'm like, You need to be able to sit for two hours and pay attention to a storyline and then have a coherent conversation with me. And that's not going to happen if your phone is dinging and vibrating in your pocket. Like you got to go put it away. So yes, we do require movies. And yes, we do make them I mean, my middle schooler has to turn in I make him turn his phone into the office at school in the morning and pick it up in the afternoon. Because I found out and this is public information that he was going to the bathroom during the school day and like hanging out on his phone.

24:56

And I thought that's not a perfect solution. I mean, yeah, Ethernet said that was very good move.

25:01

Yeah, I mean,

Sarah Milken  25:03

don't worry. He's not socially ostracized or anything, but I'm mocking adorable. By

25:11

other it's the devil, the devil.

25:14

I will tell you that. Yes, taking away the phone during school is a great strategy. But the laptop that they're required to be on has almost all the same functionality, except social media is not optimized for our grade or so there's no Snapchat that button there. There is texting, there is gaming there is shopping. I mean, when you start to ask your kids, just go to the end of the day today, ask the kids in your family. What do kids do on their computer, ah, to watch porn.

25:45

That's what they do.

Sarah Milken  25:47

I know, my daughter's teachers, I think it's a history teacher makes them take physical notes with a pen on a piece of fact, by the

25:55

way, we viewed we interviewed Emily auster. And she teaches she's an econ Professor Brown. And she there are no laptops in her classroom, her students to make sense, and it makes total sense I guess we support it and more we don't we don't even know how to write anymore. I can't even I can barely we wrote notes we wrote thank you notes for the book. Oh my gosh. And I was like on the train and trying to write at this are you?

Sarah Milken  26:26

Are you having Bob mitzvah note flashback

26:29

was having flashbacks car is like a big thank you note person. And the only time I've written thank you notes in the last 100 years was for this book, because we're so grateful to everyone who supported it. But otherwise, and my notes were shocking. Like Vanessa had to write down

Sarah Milken  26:44

the version and cars like the curated Pinterest. No,

26:48

I used to have a really nice, really nice handwriting. I use a really nice handwriting. But now it's terrible.

Sarah Milken  26:55

Okay, you guys, why did you write this fucking book? I mean, we've all talked about puberty forever. I know you have a reason why you wrote because

27:02

how could we not? Yeah, like, this is what we do we podcast about it. We have a social media account many social media accounts about it's filling the puberty. That's a yes, I named that RNA, because I realized. But I think the answer, I've written a few books. And then when I read 10 books, what I've learned is, if you write what you know, it like comes flying out of you. And it is joyous. And it is easy. And so that's what we did. And the story is funny, because it might involve me having told Vanessa, that it's completely normal to

27:41

bust my ass and you cannot, you can't and I am like not a shrinking violet. know that about me and I got my ass handed to me. So we The reason the reason we wrote the book is because we want people to know this information, because this book is going to help adults, caregivers, parents, teachers, coaches, guidance counselors, build healthier and safer kids like this is the information that every single adult needs to guide a kid through these years and come out, feeling better about themselves knowing more about themselves and going into adulthood with more confidence and more empowerment. So that's why we wrote it. That is what we truly, truly believe we are going to help hundreds of 1000s of families across the country with this book, millions, millions.

Sarah Milken  28:35

Okay, so there's some things I want to talk about in terms of communication with teenagers, older kids, all the things so you say that we shouldn't be fooled in puberty by how old our kids look, we have to treat them as their age, not how they look. Because in today's world, a nine year old girl could look 17 Tell us about that.

28:59

I mean, that's a slight exaggeration. Exactly. But I would think nothing less of you. I would

Sarah Milken  29:04

exactly. I'm just saying like in tick tock world. It's kind of crazy what you say.

29:09

Right? So I mean, Cara can talk about the brain science behind this because it's really interesting and really helpful. I just like to talk about that in congruence that we look at a kid who is nine or 10 years old, but looks 13 or 14. Yeah, and for adults. We're thinking about our own pasts and our own adolescence and what kids look like at those ages. And it's hard to handle both of those pieces of information. I know this is a 10 year old, but they look 14 And so my instinct is to treat them like they're 14, but they are not 14 And just because their bodies have developed to the point where they look older than we expect them to. Developmentally they are still nine or 10 years old, and in order to keep them safe. We have to treat them the age that they Are because treating them older puts them at greater risk, greater risk for lower self esteem. It puts them at greater risk with older kids that you know, to experiment with substances with sexual activity, all of that. So we need to help them continue to feel the age that they are a car. Will you explain the brain science behind? Yeah,

30:21

and I just want to add that it goes both ways. There are kids who are late bloomers who look much younger than they are. And it is a different kind of cruelty to accidentally treat them like they look right but of how old they are, too. And we all you know, every one of us has stepped in, it went in both directions, right. So the brain science is pretty interesting. I think the simplest way to describe it is that puberty itself, physical sexual maturation happens because of these hormones, estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. But it really happens in any order it wants to on its own timeline. So like, as, let's take a young girl, as a young girl goes into puberty. You know, she might develop breast buds early, her hips might widen later, you might see pubic hair or underarm hair crop up later, she might then have her face filled with acne, her voice might start to drop and she goes through a growth spurt. Or all of those things can happen in a different order. Like the landmarks that we look for, for pubertal development all happen in their own way. And on their own timeline. brain development is not like that at all. Okay, like the physical manifestations of puberty are the Vanessa and the brain manifestations the brain is carved out, like there's a time and a place and an order. Either way,

31:45

I just need to disabuse everyone of the note notion that I'm a hot mess. I am a deeply or

Sarah Milken  31:51

No, but that's a you're very, you're like a hot mess

31:56

that and I

31:57

say more than I

Sarah Milken  31:59

play. Yeah.

32:01

And I am not discounting that, because it's very boring to be the the straight arrow and so it's this is not there is no judgment. It's just a stylistic difference. And that's the difference between pubertal development and brain development. So brain development is entirely linear terrified to to color outside its own lines. So it goes from the bottom to the top and from the inside out. It's very, very linear. What happens is that the brain is myelinating myelinated means the nerve cells are building a layer of insulation for

Sarah Milken  32:34

themselves. Are they on myelinating and midlife? Yeah, that's what it feels like.

32:39

But you know, your your phone charger cord has a plastic cover on it. There are wires underneath the infant brain is mostly naked wires, the fully mature adult brain, everything is covered with a nice coating, what's the difference? Will signals get transmitted electrical signals and your brains electrical get transmitted much faster and more efficiently when there's insulation. And what has happened during puberty is that the brain has progressed slowly and steadily through its own maturation. And the part of the brain that by the time a kid gets to middle school is fully developed on board and can send and receive messages really, really fast as the limbic system, the emotional center of the brain, the risk reward, feel good, be motivated by my friends in good and bad ways. Okay, that part of the brain, the part of the brain that's going to take 15 or 20 more years to get fully myelinated is the prefrontal cortex and the boys. All right. And so they all have a prefrontal cortex, they can make sure they do it.

33:43

To the contrary,

33:44

he is like a dirt road to get a message there. It just goes so slow. And you have these kids. I mean, we all can imagine if I said you close your eyes and imagine for one second, the kid, you know, who has always made good decisions. What is the secret to that kid, that kid just accesses their prefrontal cortex, and they do it not by having a faster path through brain development, but by giving their brain time. And that's what's so fascinating about like, when we look at kids, and Vanessa says treat them how old they are not how old they look. We know chronologically that every single year you get you have more myelination, you have more specialization in the brain, you can make better decisions, right? You have more life experience. We know things like addiction, exposure to addictive substances or behaviors is higher risk for addiction. The younger the brain has, the less myelinated it is the less pruned it is right. So we know all these things. But at the end of the day, even though it's going to take till they're almost 30 to get signals to you his crazy cortex, which is crazy. At the end of the day, 14 year olds can make better decisions and 12 year olds. And it's right. Go ahead car. No, I was just saying, and our college kids can make better decisions than our high school and middle school kids. They don't always do it. But then when

Sarah Milken  35:19

they feel like it, correct,

35:21

yeah. But I want to go back to the Olympic system, because those of us who are middle aged women already feel somewhat invisible in the world. I mean, of course, not us because we walked down the street and heads turn and hard time can. So hot and you know, everybody, right?

Sarah Milken  35:40

Right. But you're right, there is an invisibility beacon. And then

35:44

when it feels like our kids are ignoring us, or we're invisible to our kids, it's like, we're getting it from the outside world. And we're getting it at home. And we are here to say that they're not just being jerks, that kids are not purposefully tuning us out. I mean, sometimes, but the limbic system, all the brain imaging, and research has shown that the limbic system lights up when kids are around their peers. And when kids are around adults, it does not light up. We like do not

Sarah Milken  36:19

even even kids that they're maybe don't like or maybe intimidate them, is it any kid or it's only positive friends? Great. That's

36:28

a great question. And I don't know the answer to it, we're going to ask our friend, because

Sarah Milken  36:34

I need to know that because I feel like there's so many negative situations that kids feel like, it's great to be there, but they don't really want to be there.

36:43

I'm gonna hypothesize that that's not about like, don't like it's going to be about kids that they aim to please in some way. So sometimes our kids, other kids don't like but they still want to impress her, please.

Sarah Milken  36:54

Well, what do you know, deep down that you don't fit in there? Right.

36:57

So let's Vanessa, or we're gonna max. We're gonna

37:00

ask Molly COVID. Yeah,

Sarah Milken  37:02

because we even know that as an adult, it's like we show up somewhere like in the mom carpool or whatever we're like, I don't really think these moms want to talk to me right now.

37:11

But then there's others hormones at play. There's the stress hormone, right? There's then there's cortisol being released, or you're like, excited, but nervous, maybe there's one being released, right? So it's not just like, all or nothing. But we just want people to know that your kid is like, just not necessarily like meaning to be a jerk or making you feel invisible on purpose. Like there is brain science behind that. And to have a little bit of empathy. I mean, you can say, Hey, dude, when I'm talking to you, you got to listen to me. And when I asked you a question, you got to answer my question. Fair enough.

Sarah Milken  37:48

How have you dealt with both of you with kids in college who are like radio silent for a couple days? send

37:53

pictures of the dog? Oh, my God, that's what my husband does. That's what I do. And I get a response immediately. Immediately. You gotta incentivize them to respond. You can also withhold allowance. I haven't had to do that yet. But I do I send pics because what is a picture of the dog do what does it make your kid feel?

Sarah Milken  38:16

Like home like this feel? Oh, yeah.

38:19

Ah, and connect it again. We are invisible where

Sarah Milken  38:23

it is my son is probably much smarter than I even AM. And so I was like, Dude, where have you been for three days? Like, I'm exhausted. I'm doing this. All the stuff. So instead of just writing me like a paragraph, because that's too many words, and he knows he'll have to engage. Yeah, further tax. Yeah, get a photo like So yesterday, I had more from him. I get a photo and I go, is that from fucking today? Or is that from five days ago? And he's like, we're at class right now. And I was like, okay, but then I don't hear I don't see any words. But I was like, Okay. Like, it's like the dog. He's like your I Am.

38:58

And by the way I do for crop parents of college kids. There are times when I know it's going to be a big weekend. And I say, I'm not going to bug you. I'm not going to reach out to you. But I do require you every day to send me some proof of life. I mean, God forbid I shouldn't even use that term. I know. I do use it but I shouldn't but I don't I don't do that. I see cars, cars, cars, kids respond to her exact No,

39:24

no, I don't I you know, I think every parent is going to do it differently or has

Sarah Milken  39:29

a surveillance camera. Yeah, exactly.

39:31

Yeah. And I do not track my kids. They are not I do not track my kids. So

39:36

so that's that's just it is you know, every parent, every family is going to do it differently. My My advice is that if you want your kids to let you know they're okay. Then stop tracking them and tell them I'm not I don't want to be the parent who follows you. But I do want to know you're okay. And I just need you to check in with me every Once in a while, and then you know, it depends on your kid. But like for my daughter who's at college, she actually needed to not be in touch every day, she needed. And, and some of that was that being in touch every day was my agenda and it was not hers. And if she's going going to be an adult who stays connected to me, they come from her. And so that was just her personality and mine. And it has worked really well. The other thing that has worked really well as I have said to her, we do not have to have a deep and meaningful conversation every single time we talk, we can have a two minute and walking to class, I've just wanted to say hi. And that has nuts, the picture, right that has taken her off the hook. And she doesn't feel like because I have a lot of friends in my life. I never call because I don't have time to have that conversation that I want to have that's real and meaningful. And you know, even if it's 15 minutes, I just don't have it. And then what then you lose contact. That's

Sarah Milken  40:55

silly. So it's true.

40:57

And I don't expect to talk to them. Like I don't expect to so much of my relationship with my kids happens over text, because they're either away at school, or they're, you know, at the school day, or they're doing stuff over the weekend. And I have to tell you, there's a lot of great important conversations we have over text. I mean, my college kid, I feel like I hear from him, because he needs stuff from me. Like you think your kid goes to college and then they're like out the door and off your plate. And that is so not true. There's like a million ways in which

Sarah Milken  41:30

you mean my son who was like, I need a suit and oh, by one tonight. Oh, okay. That's cool. You're in Philadelphia, and I'm in LA. Let's rethink that.

41:40

I mean, and you're like, is there a filings? Basement? Yeah, that you can go to? I know.

Sarah Milken  41:45

I was like, yes. What I've asked you for three weeks? You haven't responded? Yeah. Talk in Providence?

41:50

Yes. You asked him for three weeks this summer before he packed for college. Do you need a suit? Do you want to get a suit? No, no, I don't. I don't need a suit. And then all of a sudden he needs a night. Right? Yes. So what did he wear?

Sarah Milken  42:02

No. So it's I was like his friend. He was like, He's five inches tall. I was like, not my fucking problem. You're good.

42:09

Yeah. Also, the jacket stays on for five seconds, and then it's off.

Sarah Milken  42:13

Oh, and it's like a bar mitzvah. And it's last to last. Gross. I can't. But yeah, I totally. I think part of the sort of feeling of loss like you said, you guys is like you your main role has been this like, not helicopter mom, but like mom in charge of what's going on. And then you kind of get relegated to like consultant role. So you've gone from manager to consultant, you feel like you've been demoted, and you're like, What the fuck now? Yeah,

42:44

or you're just like, you're the guardrails, you're like, the, the posts with the little velvet ropes between them, and, and you've gotten to that point in your relationship with your kid, and you're super comfortable in that role. And then suddenly, they're not in your line, they're likely to somewhere else in someone else's line. And it's, I mean, there are some scary stuff out there. And so you can take yourself down a very dark rabbit hole if you let your imagination run away from you. And you can also fill yourself with some false sense of security if you think you've got a great way of keeping tabs and it's not real. So that is the biggest reason not to track your kids is that

Sarah Milken  43:25

I don't when you say track like, Jake, I think I have I don't know what it's called. I have live 360. But I feel like he disconnected that correct. He probably did. But, and that is his job, right? But then when you go on the text thing, you can kind of see where his location is, right? But I don't like for me to know that he's like, on 39th Street, I don't really care.

43:47

And it's not helpful for you. i You know, I asked my mom to join our family, find my group, because, you know, she's left alone, and if it ever happened to her, and I really, and she joined for about 48 hours, and then she dropped us. And I was like, Why did you drop us? And I said, this isn't about your safety. And she's like, well, sometimes I'm running late. And I feel like you know, I'm gonna be shamed for where I am and you're gonna know where I am I

44:16

thought she was gonna you know where she was sleeping.

Sarah Milken  44:20

My daddy to my kids are the opposite all say, I haven't heard from you like even my one who's at home and she goes, You have me on locations. I go, but I found one I actually have to go find I want you to tell me that you left that person's house and you're going to the next location. And she's like, I don't have to I'm on location. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that. We fight about that a

44:43

lot. Wait, are we talking about our parents now? I've lost no my kids.

Sarah Milken  44:47

Like I'm saying like I I can see where they are but I don't feel like it's my job to find go look locations for my daughter. I

44:56

don't think I'm perfect at this. But I think one thing I've done that's worked in My family, given the personalities is where all we can all see each other's right on find my, we all can see where the other one is. But I've said to my kids, I don't want to be the person who uses that. So I'm just asking you to check in with me so that I'm not looking at that, because I just don't want to be tracking you. And then they're good at saying like, hey, just a heads up. And it's mostly for my kid who lives under my Yeah, totally, frankly, like, when they're driving somewhere that they just go, Hey, I'm here gonna find great. I mean,

45:30

I think there's real value in an adult or another person setting the expectation that they're going to hear from you, and you're going to be on time. And if you're not going to be on time, they let you know where they are, and why they're running late, like, that is just common courtesy. And I think we train our kids to do it, so that when they're out in the world, and in relationships with other people, they know, oh, I let someone know, if I'm running late. If I say I'm gonna be there at a certain time I get there at a certain time. Like, I think if everybody's tracking everybody else, no one builds the skill because you just figure Oh, well, you know, right. I

Sarah Milken  46:05

know that. That's how my that's how my daughter mines it. But I also think that it relates to another important point in your book where you guys say that, we think that because teens are ignoring us that they don't need the love the affection, the reassurance that we're here, and that we're the safety net, but that we can't sort of misinterpret the door slam the eyeball roll, the ignoring of the text, like these kids still really need our love and affection. Even if it doesn't feel like it.

46:40

They need more love, more empathy, maybe new forms of affection, but lots of affection, they need so much from us. And they sometimes feel like they can't ask anymore because the world expects them that you know, they're older, and they're quote, unquote, mature, which is, you know, its own laughable term in this context. And we want to respect their boundaries. And we don't want to overstep and so everybody's busy sort of putting on this performance, when really, this is a really complicated time. And they need to know that we are in their corner, and we need to hug them, and we need to just sit with them on the couch or cuddle with the dog or just like, let them know we're around. And that doesn't require saying much of anything at all. And that sometimes is the best way to be with teenagers is to keep your mouth shut and your ears open and just be around. I know, I know. It's so hard.

47:46

You know, I mean, it doesn't mean that we tolerate when they're unkind to us, right? And so that's for you know, at the moments where it hurts our feelings or it's really not okay behavior that we need to talk

Sarah Milken  48:01

Oh, my kids definitely know where those lines are like there's no hate you there's not they don't cross the disrespect that their

48:08

job is to individuate I mean, they not to break free of the that very primal toddler esque relationship with us in order to be successful when they launched in the world. And so, it we I, we all feel conflicted about it, but it's our job, and we have to let them do their job. And that's where Vanessa is so right that just showing love consistent and persistent love is that they need to know that's the baseline. It's there for the rest of their life. That's what keeps them connected for the rest of their life. But it does it's not a chokehold on them. Yeah.

Sarah Milken  48:51

I like my daughter does not want to talk in the morning, right? Oh, I

48:55

have one of them. But at 11 o'clock at night, if she just Yeah, rocks. She

Sarah Milken  48:59

knocked on our door twice last night and my husband's like, and I'm like, we're awake. You know? Like, do you need me? Yeah, I was like, Do you want to talk about like, right now? My eyes are bleeding. But sure.

49:17

And and there is I mean, we talk in the book about sleep. And there is a change in the circadian rhythm. I mean, there is a reason why teenagers don't want to talk to us in the morning and cannot shut up at 11 o'clock at night when we are like propping our eyes open with toothpicks. And they so that is a big challenge for people raising adolescence. And I will say, as much as you want to tell them to go away and stop talking. This may be your one and only chance to have this time

Sarah Milken  49:46

take advantage of every second of it and my husband is asleep.

49:51

No Rogers asleep. Here. He is asleep and they come and they talk and they talk and you're like Where were you two hours? To go to the energy to have this conversation, and that's fine, because it's so interesting. Lisa demora. We were talking to Lisa tomorrow about this and more of she's the best. And she was like, you know why they do it when you're in bed. They come and talk to you when you're when you're in bed because you can't go anywhere and they can like you're in bed. You're not going anywhere at any point when they're done. Except Cara confessed that she will get out of bed and continue.

Sarah Milken  50:28

Oh, my God, my, my daughter would die. If I did that. She'd be like, Why the fuck are you following

50:34

me? Like, I'm not done? I'm not done. And Lisa goes, Okay, you're done.

50:39

Like you're done. Don't get out of bed. Do not get out

Sarah Milken  50:41

of my son. He's very specific about the way he texted me because it's like, I just wanted to tell you this, but please don't ask me nine questions,

50:50

right. But I take issue with the like, my kids say to me, like, I'm gonna share something with you. But please don't ask any follow up questions. Yeah, like, That's bullshit. I'm allowed to ask follow up questions. But here's the funny thing. My

Sarah Milken  51:02

son is nicer about it. Well, I mean, mines are nicer about it. It's a no,

51:06

no, these are my boys. My oldest is he was coming home from school in high school on birth order. Oh, maybe. And I was like, what? Yeah, he's my first I'm like, how was your day? And he's like, fine. And you know, every day, it was fine. It was fine. It was fine. And finally, I was like, How's every day fine. Like, some days are good. And some days are bad. He goes, No, Mom, if I say fine. There's no follow up. Question two, fine. If I say good, you're gonna want to know why. And if I

Sarah Milken  51:34

said on a scale of one to 10, what kind of fine is it? Right?

51:39

That's the car question. Yes, cars, like let me put it in my Google Sheet. So now what I do now what I do, and this is good for like, middle schoolers, it doesn't work as well with high schoolers, but grade school and middle school. Now I say, tell me one funny thing that happened today. Yeah. And some days they have something funny, and some days they're like, Man, I know. But

Sarah Milken  52:01

when I say stuff like that, my kids are like, Don't podcast or therapy eyes.

52:05

Me. Yeah. See, it's too in Congress. Yeah. Yeah, I can get away with it. It doesn't work for you. Yeah. You'd have to be like, So what the fuck happened in school today? Like Exactly. They're like, give me the lowdown? Matter below me, please. Yeah. would work. It doesn't Yeah, I that's fair enough. I don't know car what your version is. But basically, don't when your kid comes home? Don't be like, how was the test? Did you get the part? Did you make the tea? Oh, I

Sarah Milken  52:30

never asked questions like that. I'm wait till I die, I'm told.

52:35

So Lisa DeMars. advice is don't interview your kid, which I think is a really good way of putting it. And I do sometimes find myself accidentally, you know, prompting with the interviewer question, you know, how was your day or whatnot. But I still feel like the whim is asking an open ended question as opposed to a yes, no question. So to me, and I have a high school senior who is just, I mean, simply exhausted every day right now he comes home and he is just but he's also rowing and 530 in the morning is physically and emotionally and academically spent. Right? And so how was your day? is often not a very productive question. Right? If I said, Did you have a good day? That would be the conversation Ender. So there's this, you know,

Sarah Milken  53:26

how do you how do you engage just like all good? Yeah. Oh, we

53:31

do that too. You know, and then there's a grunt

Sarah Milken  53:33

ion language.

53:34

That sounds like a debt that was desperate Sarah, oh. Boy, sometimes kids like just don't. That's not when and how they're going to engage. Like when they walk through the door, no matter what version of the question you try. You're just not they need it. Shower. They need a shit. Yeah, exactly. It's true. They need a snack

Sarah Milken  53:59

like, hey, when my husband walks in the door, he doesn't want to be questioned when I walk in the door. I don't want to be questioned. But somehow we do it to our kids. And we're like, Hey, fuck are you talking to us?

54:08

No. And they just need they need a minute. And then when we can figure out how to do things on their timeline a little bit more, we're better off and some there are going to be weeks when your kid is just like, spent and they just don't want to engage. And you can let them know. I know. It's a long week. I'm not going to make you talk to me. I just want you to know like when the week is over, and you've had a good night's sleep Friday night, we're gonna like take a walk with the dog on Saturday because I need you to catch me up on what's going on. So it's not like you have to talk to me now. But it is like you got to talk to me at some point in the foreseeable future.

Sarah Milken  54:47

Yes, it's been acid that reminds you of our first conversation like the potted plant. Yes. Yeah. Like my like, we always talk about how like my husband with conversations like he thinks he's up Part of it but he's like, actually the dead salmon or the potted plant in the room. Like he's like the wallpaper. You know what I mean? It's like, he's pretending he's having the sex conversation because he's in there. But he's not really having the conversation. I'm having the conversation. He's window dressing. Oh, totally. So I use him a little bit because he's not in the grind of it every day asking all the annoying questions and policing. Sometimes I bring him into the mix. And I was like, you don't ask a lot. So I need you to find out from Marin, what her schedule is this weekend. He's like, Okay. And then Cole said, he'll send her a text and she fucking responds if I said,

55:41

Yes, yes. And you know, I It's so funny. Because when I was in practice, things like this built on unbelievable empathy for parents who are doing it on their own. Oh, I mean, if again, you really so hard. I think they're so underappreciated. The lift is so heavy. Oh, my God, I don't have the other personality to lean on. Ah, and, you know, I just, I think when they're little babies, it's so much harder when they're big babies.

Sarah Milken  56:12

Ya know, so much

56:14

Giant Man babies. I

56:15

have m babies. It's, it's very so if you know, to the adults out there who are doing it on their own, find your foil time that there are other people in your life who can play

Sarah Milken  56:25

Maron loves talking to my friends. There you go. Yeah. So I'm like, can you find out when we're like at your house for dinner? You know what I mean? Because really, she loves talking to my friends. It's just me.

56:38

And by the way, if she's telling your friends stuff, she knows that information is 100% you so information she wants you to have but it's not information she wants to tell you

Sarah Milken  56:51

knew that raising kids was like this master mind game.

56:54

Oh, my God, everyone's like, just cherish the moments and just wait. I swear to God, I don't remember the last 21 years of my life. Like it's like all

57:08

perimenopause.

57:10

Like every year I turn around, I'm like, Oh, it's over. I mean, the you know, the days are long and the years are short. It's a cliche, Groundhog Day. But I swear to God, we get into bed every night. And we're looking at each other. And we're like, Oh, my God, what a long day and it never ends. And it never ends. The best part about it is somehow kids seem to get funnier and funnier. Like, I think my kids are truly much more entertaining than they were when they were younger. And like, they say the

Sarah Milken  57:41

sarcasm, the nuance, all of it. I know. And we have like a whole house of comedians, like everyone's unfiltered and crazy,

57:49

but it's like, and they're so observant, and they're like razor sharp wit and you're like, oh, okay, this is keeping life fun. Oh

Sarah Milken  57:58

my God, my daughter sent me a DM the other day because I did this like workshop that all these people signed up for. And she goes, Oh, so are you like an empty nest workshop expert. Now? I'm like, Yes, I am. I mean, it's just like, we just all sort of play into it. And I was like, Oh, are you like an old cam expert now, you know?

58:17

Yeah, but how about Sarah? How about the Mom, I'm so proud of you. But please don't tag me in anything. Oh, I don't want my friends to start following me.

Sarah Milken  58:26

Oh, my God. And now Now Jake's college friends are starting to follow me. He's like, What the fuck is happening here?

58:31

They know all about your vagina now. All right, yeah.

Sarah Milken  58:35

And I'm like, You know what, like, this is what you signed up for dude. Like, you're my kid. You were brought to this world? Like, I

58:41

didn't sign up for shit. I did.

Sarah Milken  58:46

It's so good. Okay, you guys, wait, before we wrap up, I have to ask two things. Number one is, I know you guys are hot on this topic of do overs. And Vanessa alluded to or alluded to it earlier. But I really feel like as a parent as a midlife Rayji mom, that your message of that like not everything you've done or said is set in cement, and you can kind of repair anything you've sort of fucked up. And I want to hear what if you can just tell us all what to do parenting do over is because we all need them.

59:20

It's just that it's recognizing whether it's, as the words are coming out of your mouth, five minutes later, five days later, five years later, it doesn't really matter. The when of it. When you recognize that you have done something in a way that you either regret didn't share the correct information might have led to the wrong outcome. You know, I mean, there's a whole list of right. Recognize it, own it. Apologize, right. apologizing to your kid is actually a very, very powerful modeling tool. Because what it says is No one expects you to be perfect when you are in this role or in any leadership role. And owning a mistake is an important piece. And then take a do over and try it again. So not just, I'm sorry, I messed up that conversation about, you know, Vanessa is a great example in the book, a conversation about rape.

Sarah Milken  1:00:19

Oh, that conversation Vanessa, from the first time we talked oh my god, it's amazing. And what you guys have to buy the book or Vanessa can give us the one second scoop on that?

1:00:30

Because I have a I have a better do over conversation that happened last week. Yes. Okay. Do

1:00:36

you want to do it?

1:00:38

Yeah, but I want you to finish your point, because I'm done. She's Sarah, she's had enough of us. I, my kid, we were leaving, like homecoming, and I had all these kids coming home with me afterwards to destroy my basement. And they, my 13 year old couldn't find his backpack. And I was like, sitting in a dark car at the end of like, 18 soccer games. And he calls me from like, the Athletic Center. And he's like, I can't find my backpack. And when I tell you, I started screaming at this child, like, as if the world was on fire. What do you mean? Like I said, everything you should not say to a 13 year old kid whose executive functioning sucks. And then lo and behold, he found his backpack while I was screaming at him. And he picked it up and he came to the car with his friend. And I was like, I am so sorry. I am so sorry. That was unnecessary. I was allowed to be annoyed. I didn't have to scream at you. Like I could have been much calmer and I'm really sorry. And he was like, That's okay mom. That's okay. Like you are allowed to be mad. But the point of that and I can't remember car which psychologists we interviewed told us this but the point of it is that they know they can weather uncomfortable situations and get through to it. Yep, get through to the other side of it and still feel loved by that person. Like you can have an argument someone can shout at you. You can. You can mess up and make mistakes, but the connection is still there. And the repair tells the kid and Elisa Pressman has her book coming out and she will talk about all of this so beautifully better than we do. But it isn't the beauty is in the repair. So we it's better that we don't do it perfectly, because we won't. It's better that we mess up own our mess ups circle back, apologize. And Cara Lee says explain the why why did I get upset? And why am I coming back to you now? And it is. And then a few days later, my kid screwed up and he came to me and he was like, I have to own what I did. I messed up. I'm really sorry. Here's what I'm going to do differently next time. And it was like the line between my apology to him and my do over tied directly to him turning around and apologizing and owning his stuff. To me. And it was like it was the most thrilling I mean, it's so this is how exciting but like like it was

Sarah Milken  1:03:25

real good parenting moment. We all love having those.

1:03:29

I mean that's what makes it all worth it besides like putting function

Sarah Milken  1:03:33

and then you fucking got him like one of those Apple ID tags for his backpack. Actually, you know what, that's I told my son I don't know if he did it, but I was like, you tend to leave your things and No. is so smart. Now we have like a little bit my husband doesn't think things need to be Apple ID tagged but I do. And so now every time we open the kitchen drawer, they're talking to us because they beep and he's like this is so annoying. I was like it is annoying. It's annoying, but like how helpful would that be? Like we also need like midlife on our keys. Like that's really smart. It's like that we're my keys I don't know let me let me

1:04:20

find them I'm where's my brain?

Sarah Milken  1:04:23

Oh my god I asked myself all the time. Okay, wait, I have to ask you guys a few funny questions before we wrap up on a scale of one to tab How hard is it you for you to not squeeze your kids pimples or just want to Oh, I'm a pimple squeezer and they don't have me

1:04:39

i so i car is gonna have a different answer because she's more self control than I do but they're a very i You're not supposed to pop him but I know what I want but I do. I do. And there's only one time it's when the white hat is basically like in 10 seconds gonna burst itself. Yeah. Anyways, and then my kids are like Like, wash your hands. Okay, like you do it, but only like one very specific and bacne. And I know I'm not supposed to and I know it says in the book that we're not supposed to, and I'm, I'm sorry, but don't

Sarah Milken  1:05:15

get like such satisfaction. It's like orgasmic to squeeze a pimple. Yes, and cleaning their ears. Oh, I don't clean ears and they don't let me squeeze their pimples but I want to car do you ever answer

1:05:27

pencils better than I did.

1:05:30

I love nothing better than to squeeze a pimple. However, the bottom line is I've seen so many bad skin infections as a result of poor hygiene mixed with pop pimples. And when you pop your own kids pimples, you're modeling for them that they should be popping theirs and then they leave your house and they're not washing their hands or they're not using alcohol to clean this new

Sarah Milken  1:05:54

let Riley go to school with a Whitehead.

1:05:57

He will not let me come within 10 feet.

Sarah Milken  1:06:00

I know but I'm saying Does he squeeze it? Does he? I can't. Because I know my kids know. See my daughter is like you she's such a rule follower. Well, it's

1:06:09

not. It's not this one is in fairness to him. It's not a rule follower. The healing is faster when you don't cause secondary infection. Hey, Vanessa

Sarah Milken  1:06:18

and I are like, Fuck it squeeze the white head. I can't go into public with a white head. You Me and my mother? Yeah, it's just impossible. Okay, now on a scale of one to 10. Have you ever wanted to pluck your kids eyebrows? Like the unibrow like that? Yes. Yeah, I know. Right. And we talked about it. Like I like my daughter dealt with her own. But like when my son was like, in I don't know, whatever. I was like, any chance like you want the tweezer? He was like, Yeah, but it hurts. I go. Yeah, but it's worth it. Right. And he's like, yeah, so he does his own. But I really want

1:06:54

to take a swig of whiskey and get in there.

1:06:56

It's also the mustache that comes early and the guilt about that. And you're like kind of shaming your kid but you're like, I think you need to shave your face. It's very complicated. Isn't it?

Sarah Milken  1:07:07

Complicated?

1:07:09

Hair is a really complicated topic. It's it is. It is a hot topic. It doesn't seem

Sarah Milken  1:07:15

dark hair. Jewish girls. Yes. Yes.

1:07:20

Yes. The laser ladies love me. They're like, this is

Sarah Milken  1:07:25

like the bitches for life. Okay, so for any men, no mom, midlife mom out there feeling like oh my god, my kids are on the older side. My kids are in puberty. They're having sex for the first time like kids, a college all of these things? Do you have want do each of you have like one piece of advice? That's like, just do this, and maybe you'll feel a little bit better today. Just talk to them. And you just keep sending texts if they don't want to hear from you?

1:08:03

Uh, yeah, I mean, you just whatever that means, you know, talking means so many different things these days. Just like, just keep trying. And we all know this. Our kids ebb and flow. They go through stages where they pull away, they go through stages where they're so connected, just to I think just

Sarah Milken  1:08:26

not take it personally, it's not person, I

1:08:29

just can't take it personally, ah,

1:08:33

I just tell my kids over and over that they can come and talk to me. They can call me text me no matter what, no matter where they are, no matter what they've done. They can always, always call me and I have this crazy experience where I've been telling my oldest that for years. And just this past year, as something happened to a friend of his any call to ask for advice. And I said, Sweetheart, you can always call me he goes, Mom, I know you've been telling me this for years. I now finally, believe you. So if you feel like a broken record, which we all do, we all do, do not lose heart, do not stop telling them these really important things because eventually, eventually, eventually it will get through and they will need you and they will call you.

Sarah Milken  1:09:24

I mean, look at the end of the day. We all want to feel like we matter in the world. And our teenagers want to feel like they matter not just to their friends but to their parents and to the people around them. Even though it may not seem like that. And I know with Jennifer Wallace's new book, it's like the key thing. It's like yeah, yes, this college yes, that college blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, like we're in a mental health crisis here, especially for teenagers post pandemic so much stress so much teen suicide, that it's like at the end of the day Your kids knowing that they matter to you is such an important thing. Some of us might overdo parenting a little bit and be stalkers. Some of us might be a little extra, exactly extra, some people, some of us might be a little under parenting and kind of letting them go off too much. And it's just kind of figuring out what that enough is.

1:10:21

And I think that's the perfect place to land is, we're all going to do it differently. We're all going to do the best we can

Sarah Milken  1:10:30

squeeze pimples, squeeze pimple? Yes,

1:10:32

we're going to do the best we can with the information we have. I'm going to tell you not to squeeze the pimple. And if you tell me that going to school with a giant white head is going to be socially devastating. You are going to say thank you Cara for sharing. And you're going to squeeze the pebbles

Sarah Milken  1:10:48

so far, where a pimple patch

1:10:50

where which, right. So there we all do it. And, and none of us I think this is probably the most important takeaway. Kind of like instead of business to consumer, it's business to business like parents, parent, adult to adult, let go of the judgment. Let go of the shaming. They might do it differently in their house or with their kid. And that is fine. You have no idea what's driving that set of decisions for them. And it's none of your business.

Sarah Milken  1:11:20

Exactly. Oh my god. I love you guys. We could talk for 15 hours. This is so awkward is this fucking amazing bulk and I love the yellow box that it showed up and it was like a Cpk like pizza box. It was so cute. I took all these pictures of it. I'm like I have to save this. And then I even took a screenshot of him. I'm gonna look it up right now. It was so cute. Where was it? It says no more. Cringe less flip puberty positive. Okay.

1:11:52

He pulled a feel like if you know more, you will cringe less. You can make this expand. That's how I feel

Sarah Milken  1:11:58

about midlife and menopause. If you have the information, you know the research, you can be a little irreverent laugh about it a little bit know that there's do overs know that there are solutions and know that, you know, you have their self advocacy too. There's no magic wand for parenting or bid lifing or all the things but there's information out there and people like you are illuminating the world so where can people find you when they want to find you?

1:12:29

So they can follow us on spilling the puberty? Yes. Me a tea I like spilling the tea but Cooper T cars never met upon she doesn't love on Instagram and Tiktok they can order the book. This is so awkward wherever books are sold. They can listen to the puberty podcast, which is similar but less funny because Sara's not on it but similar to this episode.

Sarah Milken  1:12:58

I guess you're talking about vaginas but in a different way.

1:13:01

But not old vaginas. Yeah,

Sarah Milken  1:13:03

old vintage vagina.

1:13:06

Classic Car vagina. Yeah, and you can always email us the puberty podcast at Gmail if you have specific questions or can requests our newsletter

1:13:17

which is called the awkward roller coaster, which is easy to find on our website. Order of magnitude.co because we can't afford the M and you can have you can buy some great puberty and beyond merch to be comfy and air out the down below. Exactly.

Sarah Milken  1:13:38

Ventilation station

1:13:41

all of it. Yes at Mike lulu.com So can you spell uhm la om LA.

Sarah Milken  1:13:49

Okay, thank you very much. Okay, you guys I want everyone to think about what puberty shit we can start doing today with our kids one small step to making the puberty journey and the how of our midlife hormones sure into that. We love your new book, of course in discovering all things, modern puberty, I mean, who doesn't want to know that puberty lasts for almost forever? And then menopause last almost forever. I mean, like,

1:14:15

whole just just runs into the other was Yeah.

Sarah Milken  1:14:19

watercolor. Wow, we're just like going one into the next. Car natters here and Vanessa Crowell Beddit for being friends of mine and the flexible neurotic podcast. I know we went over I can't help myself. I love both of you. Thankfully, no one has any pimples for me to squeeze today or hairs for me to plug. Now. I'm thinking did my son take a tweezer to college? I do not know. But I'll talk to Helen love that. He'll really love that. And then I have this view. Oh my god. Then I have this thing. I'm like, what if I text him an awkward question and someone's sitting next to him and like sees his screen.

1:14:59

They only call you on speaker also, you're not gonna have a private conversation with your kid between now and four years old. I'm like, only call on speaker here.

Sarah Milken  1:15:07

Like what you're saying don't

1:15:08

care. They don't care.

Sarah Milken  1:15:10

He'll be like, Oh, my roommates taking a shit in the other room and I'm like, okay, but he's gonna walk back in like, you know, it's just so funny, but he's happy. He likes his roommate all as well. And now I just have to manage it. 11th grade daughter, you know?

1:15:26

Oh, it's so, so simple.

Sarah Milken  1:15:28

It's so simple and not you know what's going on? We're here.

1:15:31

I know. We're here for you. Yeah, always available, and there's

Sarah Milken  1:15:34

always a do over. And there's

1:15:38

right last, we should

Sarah Milken  1:15:39

do that. Okay, you guys love you. See you on October 23. Right. There are three things you guys can do. First, subscribe to the fucking podcast second. Share it with some midlife friends who'd like Midlake shit. And third, write an apple review. writing reviews is kind of annoying an extra step but guess what? It really helps the podcast grow. You think your little review won't matter but it does. If you went to a show and everyone said my top doesn't matter then there will be no clapping you all matter. DM me, you know I always respond. Oh, and of course, follow my instagram at the flexible neurotic da love you talk soon.