Living Midlife “Boldly”...
Just the Way we Like it!
Tamsen Fadal 0:03
I've learned who I am what gives me confidence. What doesn't give me confidence what sucks it away from me. And so you know what brought me here is is is simply getting to know myself a little bit better better than I have in the past, you know? 52 years
Sarah Milken 0:20
Hey peeps, welcome to the flexible neurotic podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Milken. Yeah, you heard that right. I'm a real PhD doctor. Long, long ago, like last fucking year. I was sitting in the midlife funk wondering, was this it for me? That day, I realized I needed to get off my ass and start my midlife remix. I dusted off my PhD wipe the menopause, sweat off my forehead, grabbed my golden shovel and started digging deep to all my midlife bitches. It's not just love coffee and hormones that get you through your midlife remix. It's action steps. Let's do this. Hi, good peeps. This is the next episode of The flexible neurotic Podcast. I'm Dr. Sarah Milken, the flexible neurotic. Today I have an awesome guest. She's an Emmy award winning journalist. She's had a huge career as a reporter, television host and anchoring the evening news in New York City for the last 10 years. When she's doing her TV thing. She's teaching and inspiring midlife women to live boldly with her viral social media platforms, and her podcast called coming up next. She is also responsible for hashtag menopause talk, a week long series of live events and video video collaborations that went on in the summer between top Tiktok menopause creators to provide more education to women facing menopause. Similar to me and other people in the menopause and midlife space. She wants midlife women to take ownership of their health and wellness through gathering the information and taking action steps. I saw her in person when I went to the I am stripes event with Naomi Watts in New York City where she moderated one of the panels with the one and only Katie Couric and four other women chatting all things midlife. I didn't get to meet her there. So I brought her here today. Her name is Tamsin fuddle Hi, Tamsin. i Nice to see you. I'm so excited to have you here. The intention of this episode is to take a deep dive into Thompson's 10 midlife things on how to live boldly in midlife. We're gonna dig deep with her on her experience of midlife menopause and aging, her very public divorce at 40 Her remarriage at 50 the loss of her mom dating advice marriage advice, her workout routine all the way to menopause hormone regimen, and of course, her newish midlife and menopause platform. Get your golden shit shovels out. We're gonna dig deep with Tamsin Here we go. Tamsin, you have your golden shovel, I guess so. Okay, you describe yourself as a champion for women and what you call their prime and what we call midlife or second half of life, you obviously weren't always that, what brought you to this, what inspired you?
Tamsen Fadal 3:22
Well, I had no choice. I just got here. You know, I spent a long time in the television business kind of hiding my age and not talking about it and trying to to anti age as much as possible. And then I realized, you know, quiet time during the pandemic turn 50 In the middle of it. And the realization that like I was really okay with who I was, I got married at 50 years old, I turned 50. It was like it's really been kind of a great ride for me the past two years. I feel like I've learned who I am what gives me confidence. What doesn't give me confidence, what sucks it away from me. And so, you know, what brought me here is, is is simply getting to know myself a little bit better, better than I have in the past, you know, 52 years.
Sarah Milken 4:05
Now for me, I started this podcast two years ago when I got the midlife hit cheese. And I decided I wanted to gather as much information as I could about midlife and I was gonna bring everyone along with me who was interested in gathering midlife information. It seems like kind of what you need you end up doing for yourself, and then I ended up doing it. For others. It seems like you've sort of done the same thing. Like you could have just stuck with being a TV anchor, but instead you took your menopause. And now you're sharing it with the world. Yeah,
Tamsen Fadal 4:39
I think I think we owe that to ourselves. And then I think we owe it to other people. And then I think we owe it to the women that are coming up behind us, right. So I had all these questions. I went through my divorce and what the hell to expect it destroyed my self confidence. Then I go through menopause and I'm like, what, what is this like? I don't even know what this is. And then it hits around the same time midlife does and I guess I feel like I did the same thing you did it hit me anything that's hit me in a certain amount of certain time, I've found a way to try to talk about it. I surprised myself right now because I'm much more bold than I would have been. If you told me at 42, I would have been talking about menopause, on social media went away every day, I'd be like, you're out of your mind. Like, don't take that bet. I was, you know, face tuning my pictures, getting rid of wrinkles, removing this part on there with your finger, you're making good. And now I'm like, here I am in the bathroom, putting on my estrogen patch. But I feel like you know, some, the I don't know, whatever, whatever clicked, clicked, but it seems to be working. Because I feel like I'm able to help other people and other people are helping me. They come back to me with ideas or products or experiences or things that are working for them. So I don't know, I think it's pretty cool.
Sarah Milken 5:51
Now let's start with the midlife and divorce situation. I mean, I don't know all the details of it. But you had a very public divorce, I read that you were sort of ashamed and you wanted to hide, can you kind of give us a quick snapshot? Obviously, a lot of the women who listen to this podcast, there are some in there who are going through divorce, who have been through it, kind of like what your experience was, and what your takeaways are looking back on it.
Tamsen Fadal 6:13
Yeah, I mean, it was also a different time. You know, it was 10 years ago, almost 11 years ago now. And I don't think that everybody was quite so open about everything like a divorce and talking about it all the time. And certainly not midlife or menopause, you know that. You know, on television, I was running a matchmaking business. With my husband, I was embarrassed, I was embarrassed that we were running around giving people advice, and then couldn't keep our own, you know, our own shit together. And then I think that I was embarrassed by the fact that I thought I knew what it took to have a good relationship. And I didn't, I think I was kidding myself, you know, I was more interested in being with somebody, and too scared to be alone. So you know, my father had always said to me, it's better to be lonely, alone and lonely with someone. And I remember one night sitting on the couch, and we were watching Two and a Half Men both eating like in front of the TV not talking to each other. And I went, I am lonely with someone and this is bad. And then you know, there was a lot of different areas of the relationship that were not healthy for me. And I started going to a therapist and talking a little bit more about them and realizing, you know, when you have problems in a relationship, you isolate yourself in their relationship. And then we deal with a lot of different problems, but especially in this area, because you're embarrassed to share it with somebody or what somebody sees on the outside, it's not really what's going on. And once I kind of got it out in the air, and the words, were actually living breathing things, I realized that I was not in the right place. And I could not be there that much longer, then, you know, he had a lot of things going on that I couldn't accept. And so we went to, you know, separating and then going through a divorce and it was, you know, yucky and public. And it was, you know, it was in the New York, the New York Post and Page Six and but I look back on it now. And I'm like, Man, I wish I'd known where I was going to get to because it would have made that a whole lot easier.
Sarah Milken 8:05
So what would be your few pieces of advice for women who are going through divorce now embrace it, listen to your inner intuition, I think
Tamsen Fadal 8:15
it would be know where you are today is not where you're going to be 365 days from now, or even 90 days from now, that awful feeling of loneliness, I would say that you should not even dare get back into a relationship until you really make sure you know yourself. And some people have learned who they are in the course of the last relationship. Some people really need that time I needed that time to figure out who I was, I'd say to throw away that initial list that you had of the perfect person because I don't know that. That, you know, my husband now is certainly not somebody that maybe I would have wanted a date or had been looking to date when I was 35 years old, or 40 years old. And I would say that is not the end of the world. It was really the beginning of a different world for me, maybe not a whole new world, but like a different world for me, and I really couldn't be happier with where I am right now. And I'm not only in a relationship and a habit in who I have become as a result of it, you know, because I went into the relationship very clear that I wasn't changing him that I didn't want to change a compromise. And yes, of course that's that goes without saying those are, you know, things that are obvious. But I didn't I'm not a different person. I'm who I am with them. I'm who I am. I'm not with them who I am on the I don't come home and change who I am or, you know, I'm the same person across the board. And there's some some freedom in that. You know,
Sarah Milken 9:30
I love that because I think that you're right, I think that there is this tendency to not be authentic and all spaces. And I think one of the joys of midlife amidst all the frumpy lobbies and all the stuff that comes with it is when you do have those days or moments of clarity, you do feel empowered, because you do have that much experience behind you.
Tamsen Fadal 9:53
Yeah, there's no question. There's no question about it.
Sarah Milken 9:57
And it's like you you just sort of know more what you want and more of what you don't want, and have to sort of look deep inside and be like, You know what, I'm not willing to deal with that shit anymore. Those friends that I had or that specific friend I saw on your tick tock, I think you were talking about a friend that you broke up with you no longer serve Joe. Yeah, and that's a time it is it is a time in midlife where we do have to take a deep look in and edit and see, you know, what's serving us what's not, and what can we make better?
Tamsen Fadal 10:29
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's no, there's no question about that. And I have done that with a couple of different things. I've done it with different friends, I've done it with different items, I've done it with, you know, my, my life and my home. And I just really feel like I have streamlined so I wake up every day very clear of what's important to me. And I don't get that I don't know, somebody told me and maybe you know, but there's this thing where your emotional makes you have a physical reaction. And so my reaction would always be similar to a hot flash. But it would just be this heat, and I would fill this hole, every every part of my body, I could feel all the blood just pumping through it when I was not in the right place. Right when I wasn't not doing the right thing when I wasn't being real to what mine might you know what I really wanted. And I refuse when I feel that feeling Come on, like this much. I'm gone. I don't question it. It's maybe it's intuition. Now I don't I don't know what it is. But but it really I'm very clear that I have to feel very comfortable at all times. I don't want to feel that uncomfortable feeling. And I went through my 30s and 40s Feeling like that all the time. Like it was a normal, it was my norm to just feel like, ah, you know, life always just feels like this. And that's not what it's supposed to be like. And so you know, if there's any way I can impart that to somebody else, like, stop wasting your time being in the place that you already know, you shouldn't be. And I probably you know, my father told me when I walked down the aisle, I said to him, Am I doing the right thing with my first match? Now? You know, my dad's like, or do you think you're doing the right thing? You know, thinking it was nerves. But now I realized, like I knew I intuitively knew, but I went against that because we have the New York Times standing and now the audience because we had a matchmaking business because I was convinced that like maybe I was the career girl and wasn't being accepting enough about a relationship. So I think that this is a time that you have to, I don't know, you have to be really true to yourself. And that's what true to myself means.
Sarah Milken 12:23
I love that because I feel like one of my mantras in midlife has been midlife self obsession is approved. And it's not self obsession. From a narcissistic perspective. It's what works for me, what doesn't, I want to say no to bad and yucky vibes, things that don't align with me. And I want to say yes to things that are new. Maybe they make me uncomfortable, but they're new. They're exciting, and kind of lean into that synchronicity of not just like always feeling like I'm fitting trying to put a square into a circle.
Tamsen Fadal 12:57
Always fighting, right? Yeah, fighting for it. And I don't want to feel like I'm always fighting for it. I want to work hard. And that doesn't mean that I don't want to, you know, be true to myself. And that doesn't. But I don't want to always be like struggling with this uphill battle of, you know, things that don't seem to be working. And so if I feel like there's something that's not working, I'm just move on. And I don't I don't struggle with that anymore.
Sarah Milken 13:22
I feel like it's kind of nice not to struggle too, because I'm like, I am who I am. You know, and I'm honest about myself, here are my kids, kids, here's my husband, this is what I'm doing. And I've always been like a relatively confident person. But like you said, when I started this midlife podcast and Instagram, I'm like, I can't believe that I'm sharing such vulnerable and private things about myself, about my vagina, about my husband, like what is happening here. But it's this beautiful energy of, the more you're open about things, the more that comes to you. So I've created this beautiful community of women who are like, Oh my God, you make me feel seen and I know you must be experiencing that too.
Tamsen Fadal 14:10
Yeah, I you know, I'm coming from news, I spent a long time telling a lot of different stories, and I still do, but I feel like it's the stories that I'm hearing that are the most important ones to me right now. You know, and when I do, you know, I get a lot of messages and I get a lot of messages of things that I've either experienced am experiencing, or you know, I've heard somebody else experience and I I just think that yeah, it really touches me, right? Like I spent years you know, reporting on different things. And it's like this real thing that's happening to all of us is what you know, I don't know it was really feeds me.
Sarah Milken 14:45
I think that this idea like everybody wants to feel seen and heard and not be invisible. And I think these sorts of public and social platforms, creates this knit community where people are like, Oh my god, I'm not the only one who has like Dr. Vagina I'm not the only one who's like changing into a tank top to interview Tamsin, because I'm profusely sweating even with the air conditioning on. I mean, oh my god.
Tamsen Fadal 15:12
I'm saying goodbye to my husband. Okay. There must be a letter. He's like what are you? He wants any her dry vagina. He's like I'm CLA Yeah,
Sarah Milken 15:20
I believe me. My husband's like, he's like what's happening here? I did not sign up for being on a midlife podcast. Okay, so let's switch gears for a second. Let's talk about midlife and your parents. I know that your mom passed away when she was 50. Yeah. 51 Okay, so how old were you?
Tamsen Fadal 15:40
I just turned 20. I just started 20th birthday. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Milken 15:45
And so how has the passing of your mom and being her age now? How has that impacted your view on aging and midlife.
Tamsen Fadal 15:56
I didn't realize for a long time what she had gone through until I got here, you know, because she she had breast cancer when she was 44. And so she had been through a lot of chemotherapy and surgeries and mastectomies. Three different surgeries, gold, two implants. So all that pushed her into menopause early, but I had no idea. And so now when I look at some of the symptoms that I remember, as a result, even when she was not doing chemo or treatment anymore, like she was in menopause, she was in full blown menopause on top of cancer on top of raising two kids on top of being a wife on top of on top of and so that's hard for me i It was It gets me always choked up when I think about it, how alone she felt. But what it has really done is give me a role. I feel like in this world to make sure that nobody else feels like she did. And I did. And but my mom me being now a year, six months older than she was when she died just blows my mind. Like I I always I never thought I would even be here. I always thought that was like, I just never I never saw life past that age, you know. And so I just, it's several ones while I'm like, what's going on? I can't believe like she's been gone for so long. And then I'm growing up without her for so long. And it's funny. I think that you when you're that age, I miss her more now than I did in between all those years
Sarah Milken 17:15
is not Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Because you could probably like relate to her so much more. Well, I
Tamsen Fadal 17:22
relate that I didn't know I was, yeah, yeah. Now, what
Sarah Milken 17:26
are the lessons your mom's death has taught you?
Tamsen Fadal 17:29
Oh, gosh, I always say it live your Sunday today. I think that that's what it taught me. I think that it has taught me that, you know, we're not promising anything. We're not promised tomorrow. I don't care what everyone thinks you're just not that relationships. And the people that are with you are the most important. Like, we had a lot of long talks before she died, even though I was, you know, younger and trying to do my own thing in college. But you know, she was always like, it's the five people that are around you the most. That's what matters. If you have five friends at the end of your life. That's what matters. And so she really knew without self help books, and without memes and social media and Instagram, that it was the relationships are the most important thing in your life. And I think what it also taught me is that to be present in these moments, like to really feel them and see them and not just brushed by them and not have appreciation. I think she taught me really appreciation.
Sarah Milken 18:20
That's beautiful. I mean, I in my own version of it, like I have one kid who's 18 and he's going to college next year. And I'm like, Okay, well, I'm like, How many more family dinners do we have? And it's not that I'm never going to see him again. Of course not just that sounds different way. Yeah, it's like life in a different way. And I'm just really trying to like, when he's sitting on the sofa next to me at night, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna, this is my time to, like, have that conversation, you know, remember this moment, or not have that conversation because he, sometimes he's like, Oh, shit, if I text her, or if I start talking, you know, it's going to open Pandora's box. And Jamie targeted me for five hours. Right? Right. So I tried to like I try to moderate it a little bit. Now. I also think it's kind of interesting to think about, like how our aging now is so different from our parents aging. From a runway perspective, feature has the midlife narrative is sort of getting a revamp with people like you and Naomi and sort of the kind of frumpy, Lumpy letting everything ride mentality is sort of over. Yeah. Oh, do you? Yeah. Like, how do you think like this whole idea of how much runway we have in the second half of life is going to impact us.
Tamsen Fadal 19:38
I think what I want to make sure I always do is not in 10 years regret this moment where I was, oh my gosh, I'm getting older because look where I'm gonna be in 10 years or 20 years or 30 years. So I'm trying to think of this as almost like my reset of 30 of what do you want to do for the next 20 years? And so that's kind of what I think of it as not that I think I'm 30 but think of it in the same way that At 30, I was so excited about looking forward to the next 20 years. I'm trying to think of this time as that.
Sarah Milken 20:06
Now in terms of, I mean, obviously, a lot of women who are listening to this are trying to think about their personal rebrand, or what their next thing is, or they're going to become empty nesters. I mean, obviously, you're in the public eye, you're on TV, but going into social media is a totally different ballgame. Like, I didn't even have social media two years ago, I didn't even have Facebook. And here I am, like talking about like, all sorts of shit. Like you. How, like, Were you scared of the social media part and the vulnerability and putting yourself out there? Like, how did you approach
Tamsen Fadal 20:45
your guide? Oh, well, remember, I've always read off a script. So I'm like, That's what I do. And so I literally when I first got on social media on tick tock, I have this app, and it's like a teleprompter app.
Sarah Milken 21:01
I haven't used it, but I've heard about it
Tamsen Fadal 21:03
like I have. So as I was like, I'm gonna use the teleprompter app. And that's how I'm gonna do my social media. It makes sure everything is perfect.
Sarah Milken 21:12
I wouldn't be able to see the screen. Well, I
Tamsen Fadal 21:15
could see the screen I had theirs. You can do writing this big. Oh, yeah, that was I get 64 fonts. And then, so I would do the teleprompter app. And then a friend of mine called she goes, Are you reading the prompter? I go, what? And she goes, Are you reading on your social media? If you are you better stand back a little bit. It looks ridiculous. And I'm like, Oh, those are supposed to be my practice. Atla you know those applets so anyway, I put that down. And then um, I don't know what happened. You know, I I did do this one video where I I did read this one, but it was 34 symptoms of menopause. And oh, by the way, I started on Tik Tok to be like, loosey goosey, because I was refitted because still Instagram was perfect. Yeah. Pictures from Italy. I want to make sure that my dog looks perfect. My heart. Yeah. And so I started on Tik Tok. And I was like, who cares? Like, all of a sudden audience like people are coming, like commute this community and I went, What's going on here? And then I read 34 symptoms of menopause. And that was my first video that went. And I thought, oh, my gosh, there's a lot of people that have to know this information. So then I started, like, looking at questions that I had, and answering those and talking and talking. And now I don't even know, I don't even have my teleprompter app. I could even find it. But it was really cool. And then I decided to get on Instagram. My bosses are on there. What if they see I'm in menopause? And then, you know, what if they know I'm 52, even though Google says I am, or 50 I just did it. And now I don't know. It's just been really refreshing. And it's really nice. And like somebody said, recently, I saw any bathroom putting on I want it, whatever. And I'm like, Yeah, that's what I do in the morning. Like, I don't know what to say to you. It doesn't. I don't show up like that. It
Sarah Milken 23:02
still looks really beautiful. And like you have great lighting, and very well. It's
Tamsen Fadal 23:08
not always good lighting. We just like I just find like, I'm like this with my husband like Sam that come up. Come forward, Sam back, go back. Like he's the worst.
Sarah Milken 23:17
I don't know if you might want even tolerate it. He's like, sorry, I'm gonna do one try. And that's it. I'm like, okay, yeah, he does that too. Yeah,
Tamsen Fadal 23:25
he was in. But I did have to pose this about him because it was really funny. We were in Paris. And I'm like, he's my only hope. I can't even stop somebody like that. I don't even know anybody here. So I'm like, Listen, I'm gonna walk up the street with this really cute outfit. And all you have to do is press this button and record it. So just like, this is where you have to hold it to hand him the thing. And he's like this, like, when I'm walking, and I go, Are you? Are you getting this? And so he's like, No, it's on me. So I go to get my phone. And it's him. But he's staring at it with this funny face tapping on the screen. Like, he looks he's like, and I went, because that's actually better than my walk. And I did and people were dying. Because it he's so innocent. And so you know, but anyway, so I enjoy it. You know, I'm enjoying it. And that's kind of cool.
Sarah Milken 24:20
But you've had like, I mean, you started posting and then you have this like crazy. Like, crease is it Jinling rant what happened?
Tamsen Fadal 24:29
I turned 52 And I did these four videos. It's so crazy, because I did this video on YouTube two years ago, like 50 things I want for you when you turn 50 And I had like 10 hits, I don't know. And then I did four videos. I think those four are divided. 52 I think I'm terrible at math. I think it's a four. And so what is it 13 And each one I can't see. But anyway, so and this this is the sad part of it. So my John passed away. A little over a month ago. It was a weekend of my birthday. It was like the day after my birthday. So I was in an emergency room the whole time. But I had scheduled these videos out to go out each day on my birthday of like, My gift to You is this my 52 things I've learned. So they're going out going on, like, I wasn't paying attention to Instagram because we were at like the job pet hos we were all over the place. And on. I think I was like Tuesday or something like after, it was just a horrible like four days, I never want to remember, all of a sudden, these videos started to like, get tons of like being shared chair, chair, chair, chair chair. And I went, well gone. Now there's one thing if like, Hey, I'd really love to build my community. And there's another thing where like, all of a sudden, this starts happening, because I'm like, did I say all the right things? I have my teleprompter. You know, always
Sarah Milken 25:50
did I have my eyelashes on.
Tamsen Fadal 25:52
It was crazy. Some of them don't have makeup. I went oh my gosh. And if you go back and you look at those videos, that's kind of where it started. It was like, um, now, I don't know how many weeks like six weeks ago, but that's where it started. And it just kept building and then I just kept doing more videos, different ones. But you know, some will work some don't. But that's what happened. We never advertised you never, I don't even know how to advertise on July, none of that. It's like, well, I'm too scared. Because I'm like, what? I'm putting my what, what what I don't even know what I'd be advertising advertising my putting on my estrogen patch. I don't have the products. So anyway, yeah, that's what happened. That's amazing. What got me excited about it was not the numbers, but the stories that are coming into my inbox. Yeah, that was a part. And the fact that 89% of my followers are female. And that's cool. That had gone from like, I think I had a lot more men because of the news business and just, you know, whatever. Because of the pictures I used to pose like, you know, but now. Yeah, is unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I'm really happy because I feel like there's a real conversation that I'm a part of, and I'm excited about that.
Sarah Milken 27:04
That's I love that tiktoks Next for me, I like with Instagram, Instagram was such is such a beast, especially like I
Tamsen Fadal 27:13
was saying horrible things about it. I feel terrible. Now I was like, I'm off of that I'm on tick tock only crazy. I was I was so mad. Because I'm like, What is this? And what are reals? I'm going to do real. Wow, pretty pictures of your flowers and coffee cups I want to post in memes. And none of that worked. You know, people were like, keep your coffee cup. But when I started getting real it was you know, it was a I knew I don't even know, I really don't know the answer. But yeah, that happened in a very short amount of time. I was. Yeah, I'm still kind of shocked. I'm like, I don't even know if that was good advice.
Sarah Milken 27:50
No, it's amazing. Congratulations. I feel like you like when you hit nerves with certain things you do. Like sometimes I'll have a post and outlet 2400 likes and I'm like, okay, my post two days ago had 250. Like, that's exactly how I feel. I feel like this doesn't even make sense. And then I'm so lucky that I have so many women who are wanting to be involved. I'm like, I can't believe that. Me Sarah, like just started this. Like, I have to respond to 100 to 250 comments every time I post but like how blessed am I? I think everyone wants to have this. Like really intimate conversation. People are like, what's your vaginal estrogen? What's this? What's that? And I'm so happy that it's created this sort of conduit of a discussion. At home. We all have our different doctors, every doctor saying something different. Some a lot of doctors are like, Oh, you're fine. That's just midlife. And we want real fucking answers.
Tamsen Fadal 28:52
Yeah, I could not agree more. And it's funny you say that because I do the same thing. I'm like, you're asking me through this like impostor syndrome thing. Like, oh, what if somebody knows that? I don't know all the answers in life. You know, I do that. They're gonna find me out. I don't know everything.
Sarah Milken 29:10
Yeah, you're like, I know what I take for menopause. But I don't know if it's for you.
Tamsen Fadal 29:14
Yeah, doctor and I are like, I'm not a doctor. But I do talk about what I do. Because I originally did not do as HRT, because I was very scared about you know, Miss information coming from that study in 2002. And so I had fear and I don't know how where it came from, but I had fear and work came from all of us. We deal with the headlines in the media. Anyway, so I started estrogen about almost it's going to be two years in April, I think. I think that's right. Things go by so fast now right? Things go by so fast. Yeah. But I started that and it's really been a game changer for me because I probably could not have had a coherent conversation with you two years ago.
Sarah Milken 29:55
So your new use the HRT patch,
Tamsen Fadal 29:58
so I have a patch On my side that is Mondays and Thursdays I change it. So I do Monday morning, I change it and Thursday night I change it. And I think it's like point 05 In SC estrogen. And then nightly I take a progesterone pill. Yeah, because you have to take you know, yeah,
Sarah Milken 30:16
I'm up next for that I've been on birth control pills. I know this is. But I've been on birth control pills since I was 14. Yeah. And for me, it's worked.
Tamsen Fadal 30:27
But I know a lot of people who I know a lot of people that have done that. So I
Sarah Milken 30:31
Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like my mom went literally was one of the few who want wanted HRT even though the study said XY and Z. She was like, I can't feel that way.
Tamsen Fadal 30:44
Yeah, me too. Me, Dan. I tried to do it. The other ways, though, you know, I really tried to do it the other way isn't it did not work. It did not work for me. Now, some things didn't work. But the brain fog was beyond what I could see. I couldn't work is the problem. And that was it. I could I could deal with the hot flashes. And night sweats. I could deal with the weight gain and love it. But it was the brain fog was I couldn't. I just couldn't work. I couldn't function. I couldn't read the teleprompter. I couldn't. So I would say a word. Yeah, I would say a word I just no more confidence. I was not who I really was on set. I was very that's why I was with a teleprompter. I was I was using a teleprompter on social media.
Sarah Milken 31:24
But even even with estrogen, I'm like, wait, what? What did I just say? Well, I saw that.
Tamsen Fadal 31:29
Go away. But yeah, but I still have that
Sarah Milken 31:34
now, did you? Because I have to do the patch soon. Did you tinker around with the doses or did like how do you?
Tamsen Fadal 31:42
You know, I've stayed on the same dose and it's it's worked really well for me. And I haven't changed anything. The only thing I'd really like to look into at this point is testosterone. Yeah. Because, you know, diminish sex drive is as real.
Sarah Milken 31:57
It has like you have and you have a new husband, right?
Tamsen Fadal 31:59
I was a bride It was like he gave me a ring and I went into menopause like I don't know.
Sarah Milken 32:06
I mean, he didn't expect you to be like a sec star. But like you gotta like
Tamsen Fadal 32:10
Well, no, but yeah, well, you also they expect me to be like, Alright, thank you. Yeah, you're talking about my dry, you know. So that is the next thing I'm going to talk about. But I really wanted to make sure that I was comfortable, you know, with estrogen and progesterone and hormone therapy first. Before I you know, kept adding on adding on.
Sarah Milken 32:29
Totally I have I haven't done the testosterone yet. Believe me. I'm not opposed to it. I'm sure that's coming soon. Yeah, a lot of my friends do use it. And they've had really good luck with it. Yeah, yeah. That's one of my closest friends husbands is like, she's really into it, Sarah, I'm like, Oh, my God. I'm like, do not tell my husband that sleep. Like I'm like, already have enough projects. Thank you very much. I am with you. Now I've heard you talk about something like in terms of midlife love. Second time around. You say, you know, you lost your mom, and you went through this harsh divorce. And there's this concept that you call pink flags. What does that mean?
Tamsen Fadal 33:14
Yeah. Well, you know, I think that we all kind of know what red flags are when we're meeting somebody seeing somebody and we often ignore them. And then I didn't, and I did that I with my first husband, he was sleeping on somebody else's couch. He had a horrible divorce. His ex wife hated him. It people didn't want to do business with him. He was all these things. And I'm like, She's a victim. It's it's not that bad. Maybe you start you know, and I really, in, in some people might have been in this case, I think I take a lot of what should have been red flags to me. And I was like, they're pretty like that microphone cover. We have that bar on. And so I think that you have to make sure that you're not doing that you're not like kind of muting what the problem is or muting what the concern is, and not trying to sell yourself on something just so you can have an end result. And I think that's what I did. I think it was I was ready to you'll find somebody I felt like I'd been in television a long time and given up a lot of different opportunities in my personal life, because I thought and I don't even know if they really would have been opportunities, but a lot of relationships. I moved around a lot and missed a lot of holidays. I worked all the time. And so I think I was ready to like, have that next step in my life. And he was extremely charming. And so I just kind of went, Oh, everything's so pretty in and now if I look back, I'm like, what were you thinking? What's wrong with you?
Sarah Milken 34:34
Yeah, there's that Maya Angelou quote when someone shows you their true colors, believe them.
Tamsen Fadal 34:39
You absolutely, absolutely. And so anyway, I made the colors not red warning. I made them pink.
Sarah Milken 34:46
I'm pretty Oh. Okay, so let's segue into I mean, obviously, you're on TV. I mean, I'm on a podcast, but I will. I can't say that I've changed anything. Because of the podcast or anything like that, but I have this philosophy that do you whatever that is get the Botox don't get the Botox let your hair gray don't let your hair gray. But high school is over. Don't judge other people for what they're doing kind of just stick with your own lane. Yeah. Well, I How do you deal with that? Like, what are your thoughts about all of that? Why are we judging everybody for what they're doing and not doing? It's like crazy Ville?
Tamsen Fadal 35:28
I don't know why. I don't know why. Because I have a really hard time with women who are like, I'm supporting and empowering women, but I'm gonna criticize you can you're getting Botox or I saw me but estrogen causes this or so I always have a real tough time with that, quite frankly. And so that's why I think that's also the reason that I'm very vocal about what I do so that there's never any question. So it's kind of like, what you see today is what you're gonna see tomorrow. And I color my hair because if not, I have a you know, I have a thing down the middle, like I'm due for color that you know, I don't particularly want. If somebody else want a friend of mine when all great, she looks awesome, but just doing what I want for me, you know, and I think that I've come i think that i You anybody is at a place where they deserve to make their own decisions and not be judged or criticized for them. So I do Botox, I do filler. I you know, I try to do it in like small amounts of it. So it's not so obvious. But you know, I do what makes me feel comfortable and makes me feel confident when I when I walk out the door actually just got I just tell you this little secret I don't know if you do like secret advice and stuff, but I went to a new doctor and she said that there's TMJ, Botox and I have TMJ and my jaws were like getting bigger here. And I'm like, wait, what? And so she gave me Botox in my jaw is here and there. It's like loosened and it makes your face a little thinner as a result of like letting your jaw
Sarah Milken 36:53
I've had it. You know what it is? Yes. I know what's funny about it is I just went I mean, this is not a secret because I showed it on Instagram. But I once a year I go for my like refill on all my filler, and like the whole Botox extravaganza. And that was like a week ago. And I'm like, you know why? This is me. Like there's no secrets. I wear makeup. I wear makeup when I work out. I go to carpool at 7am for the Thanksgiving drive, and I'm wearing makeup.
Tamsen Fadal 37:26
Who cares? If you don't like a pattern? You don't need cotton or makeup to mow the lawn there. Yeah, I got it.
Sarah Milken 37:34
And I just I don't know, I kind of just feel like in this midlife time, like we already did High School, we already did all the bullshit, like, let everyone just do what they want to do. And we're trolling Instagram and social media. It's like, find something else to do.
Tamsen Fadal 37:50
Well also like if you really believe all of the stuff that you're reposting, then you wouldn't be posting something like that.
Sarah Milken 37:56
Yeah. It's just, it seems crazy to me. Now sort of related to that. How have you found making friends as a mid lifer? Like, do you feel like you've added in different types of friends, have you changed your criteria for friends,
Tamsen Fadal 38:13
I've definitely made my circle a little smaller. And I definitely have not in a mean way just in like an interest way maybe or just in kind of like my bullshit meter is, you know, literally takes more than it used to. And I also think that it can be hard because, you know, this is a time we're trying to figure out our next 20 or 30 years. So I think a lot of people are in this mode again. And so that can be difficult. What I have found is the relationships that I have, or that I've tried to really cultivate are real ones I want I want to be friends with the person and I can pick up the phone or they can pick up the phone and five years after not talking to me and would do anything for me and I would do anything for or pick up the conversation. I don't know where like, that's what I want, because those are the people that are important to me right now. And I think that that's important, like who are you going to Who are you going to know in five years that you feel like not saying you can add somebody on Don't you know, but but that that you feel like true blue that you can rely on that's that's who I want to be around? That's how I want to spend my time getting to know
Sarah Milken 39:22
I feel the same exact way but I've been like that my whole life I like always. So I think it was funny because when I started this podcast, my friends were like, that's like really not Sara, like you're very vocal and out there like in person but like you're not an oversharer like publicly. And my my response was this. It was like if I'm talking about these midlife topics, and I'm not sharing my own experience, then what am I doing? I'm just like, I'm just like reporting like, the facts like what good is that? So it's been kind of an interesting thing for my family and my friend tends to be like, even my parents are like, whoa, TMI. And I'm like, Yeah, but the TMI is not just for the shock factor. It's for the relatability factor of like, oh my god, she's going through this. I don't feel so alone.
Tamsen Fadal 40:13
Yeah, absolutely. There's no question about it. It's funny. My little 11 year old nephew is on Instagram, and he's here. I'm always like, you know, we need to teach this and people to understand this to transition in life. And, and so he said to his mother, like, why is that? Tamsin always talking about the menopause or whatever is menopause? Yeah, he's like, a little baseball is 11. And so she said, Well, it's a it's a, what is this? And he said, Is this when your boob sag? And she goes, No, this is a transition in your life that every woman goes through. So she she did a great
Sarah Milken 40:45
job. It's like, it's like puberty. You're almost there. Right? Right. On the spot.
Tamsen Fadal 40:49
Yeah. Spot response. Like, I have to give it to my sister in law, Jen, like on the spot. Ah, yeah. So then she and then, like, it was around Christmas time, and she's in the kitchen. And she was so hot. Like, she's not menopause yet. But she's, she's like, uh, I don't know why I'm so hot. She was cooking. And he goes, he walks in with his little like baseball cleats. And he goes, Man, pauses come into town. Learned,
Sarah Milken 41:17
oh, my gosh, she'll be a great husband. I was like, what I used to always talk to my son about like, I'd be like, Oh, I just got my period. I'm like, he's, he's a great boyfriend, you know? Yeah, yeah, he totally gets it. It's like he has to go to the store and buy tampons, just like all the other husbands and boyfriends have to I mean, get with it. Now, what do you think is the reason? I mean, other than the estrogen drop? Like why do you think midlife women generally feel like they've like lost their mojo, or what you call losing their bowl? Like, what is that?
Tamsen Fadal 41:50
Well, I mean, you know, society told us that's what we were supposed to do, isn't it? Isn't that what isn't that what they've shown us all along is not like sitting on a bench, like even the commercials I say all the time. Now. Well, if you're a senior, and you're going through, and I'm not, I don't feel like a senior, I don't even know what that means anymore. You know, and you're sitting on a bench petting a cat walk into the park really slow. Like, that's, that's what societies anyway. And so I think that we fear that right. And I think that, you know, this is also a time that we've kind of, we're kind of forging a new path in terms of career starting new companies that 55 and 60 years old, being in the workplace being promoted at an age, you wouldn't usually be being on television, where oftentimes women that the my age are winding it down, not winding it up. And so I think that is I think that's why and I think that unfortunately, if we don't have somebody know, not everybody is having these conversations that we're having not everyone is listening to these kind of podcasts that you know, that you have, and so they need to be. But if they don't have that reinforcement, I think oftentimes you can just kind of, you know, feel really dejected. And I find that to be a real shame. And so that's why I'm excited that this voice is getting louder and louder.
Sarah Milken 43:03
I could not agree more, I just think that it's not like midlife is gonna turn into this hot, sexy thing. But it's just sort of flipping the script a little bit that like, it's yes, it's happening to us the certain psychological and hormonal factors. But at the same time, we do have ownership. Yeah, and we do have to take some responsibility in like taking action steps and, you know, maybe going to more than one or two doctors and like really self advocating for the solutions that we want. And we need, otherwise we're just give up game over?
Tamsen Fadal 43:40
Well, I think that the other part of it comes when you go and you go to a doctor and they're like, this is the way it is at this age. You know, so many people say that I think that's awful now and part of the part of the mission of you know, what I am trying to do, I'm working on a documentary called, it's not me, it's menopause. But you know, part of my mission is to make sure that women do feel like they know what the questions are, when they go to a doctor, that they know what to ask. They know that they're not going crazy that they know that there's a reason that they've been scared about estrogen and progesterone for such a long time and hormone therapy, and that there are answers and changes here and coming and there's more to them more to do. Because I think when you don't feel heard, walking into a doctor's office with somebody that you trust and respect, I mean, then one then also
Sarah Milken 44:27
like, just basic information. Like when I had my coolant first colonoscopy this year, I made it very public. I did a whole episode on it. And I was like, these are the things to ask your doctor and yes, you can get a pill version instead of a liquid version. And so many people went and got colonoscopies, not because I did some thinning, but it made it relatable. It's like okay, yeah, and it's like, Nah, Skippy seems like such a big fucking deal. And yes, it's annoying, but it's a life changer. And I've had so Many people message me and like one woman was like, I got a colonoscopy. So my husband did and they found x, y and z. They took out like 16 inches of his intestine, and oh my god, I live I know and I wow, like revelations today. Yeah, but we think like, our messages are too small and like, oh my god, I'm not Oprah. But you're just changing one life. Two lives. 50 lives. It just seems so worth it. I agree. I like cooking. Yeah, and I think having these voices is just so important. And I also think the messenger because there's gonna be some people who relate to my podcast, and some people who are like, No, I prefer like a more traditional podcast where she's not screaming the F bomb or whatever. I'm just saying. And so it's just whether it's me or it's you or whoever it is, like find the messenger, your midlife messenger that resonates with you. Because it's so life changing to be able to watch someone else do something and relate to it. Yeah. Okay, I know you have to go so I want to do this really quick. Rapid Fire wrap up fun shit about Tamsin what's next on the bucket list.
Tamsen Fadal 46:12
The documentary? I have to get the documentary done. I'm like, so I feel it inside me. It's got to come out.
Sarah Milken 46:17
Okay. Can't wait for that. Okay. Anything that you've learned that's now on your bucket list after quarantine?
Tamsen Fadal 46:24
Yes, but I have to do cardio every single day because I started walking after quarantine. I loved it so much that I consider that a workout.
Sarah Milken 46:31
Great Secret pleasure. Do you have one?
Tamsen Fadal 46:35
My secret pleasure? Is it food or is it experience?
Sarah Milken 46:38
Anything like mines like
Tamsen Fadal 46:41
bars? Oh no. Mine is getting grungy and walking through the East Village and just like, I don't know, feeling like I'm like, I don't have a care in the world. That's my favorite Saturday.
Sarah Milken 46:52
Wow. Okay. Favorite beauty treatment or secret? I know you just got TMJ, Botox.
Tamsen Fadal 46:59
I think this is um, let's see. I like oxygen treatments. And I also like that red light that I can just lay in and fall asleep because it just puts me into another so you have the Add home one what is that called? The no I don't I have a woman that I do. It's the Dr. Gross one, I think but I don't have that one. I have I go to a place I go to a place and just sit under it. I get oxygen and then I lay on to that thing or they lay and then get oxygen actually they do like just like a
Sarah Milken 47:25
hand wand for the oxygen on your
Tamsen Fadal 47:27
reel feels really good. Yeah. She's like you look 20 years younger and I go okay,
Sarah Milken 47:33
you're like how long is that going to last for six? Like walk out until I walk out. Okay, favorite makeup trip tricks or favorite makeup products? I know you do a lot of that. Yeah,
Tamsen Fadal 47:44
I love I love I love Charlotte Tilbury Pillow Talk liner. I could just wear that. I love my lashes. You know,
Sarah Milken 47:52
what are the lashes again?
Tamsen Fadal 47:54
I have our Dell or Broadway eyes. Those are my two. I love Neutrogena products lately, it's really weird. I like their smoky khol eyeliner. It's like a gel because it doesn't get on my contacts. And I love their lip glosses that are just they just don't taste sticky. Some of the ones that are so gross. Lip gloss. There's
Sarah Milken 48:12
so many. It's like a peach one. I
Tamsen Fadal 48:14
think it's I feel like it's valid or something I haven't on my my tick tock. It's I think it's with a B.
Sarah Milken 48:20
Okay. All right. Okay, okay, foundation
Tamsen Fadal 48:25
foundation. So I have a Superstay Maybelline when I use it work because I go through so much of it. It's just drugstore cheap and easy for me to get. And then I have a stick from milk that I like, which is like a heavier stick. And then I can just put a little bit on and then just brush you know, added in with the brush on the weekends.
Sarah Milken 48:42
And you I saw on your Tiktok you like the Bobby Brown concealer.
Tamsen Fadal 48:46
Oh, I love the Bobby Brown concealer sand. Yeah, it's great. I've used the whole
Sarah Milken 48:51
I know I use clo Depoe however you say that, like six a year and I'm like, these are really expensive, but like click click click ah, I just it just it just always works like the pimple the this that Okay, what if you had to bring three things to a desert island?
Tamsen Fadal 49:08
What would I bring? My iPhone? My husband? And my let's see. I'll tell him that he made the list. He made the list. Yeah, cuz I would be bored. Otherwise, I found my husband. And like some rocking Chanel sunglasses.
Sarah Milken 49:25
Cool. Okay, what woowoo things do you do?
Tamsen Fadal 49:29
Yoga, I love yoga. I'm not great meditator. I try to journal but really, it's just like to do lists. It is I can't that's on my head. So funny. I do intermittent fasting. I don't know if that's true.
Sarah Milken 49:40
No, but that's interesting.
Tamsen Fadal 49:44
I do my higher dose mat my higher YuGiOh Yeah, like that. I
Sarah Milken 49:47
actually have one but I haven't done it yet because I have melasma so I'm freaked out that if I go into a sauna and like I don't know my core. Yeah, I'm donating it to my teenagers. Okay favorite TV show
Tamsen Fadal 49:59
older. Do both any news yellow stone right now? So good. Yeah, old will always be Sex in the City.
Sarah Milken 50:08
Me too. Me too. Okay, what's the last thing you ordered from Amazon?
Tamsen Fadal 50:13
What order from Amazon?
Sarah Milken 50:15
Amazon is my best friend. So, Elmhurst milk almond milk.
Tamsen Fadal 50:19
I just got a piece of it. Okay, cool. That's like it's not very sexy, but that's
Sarah Milken 50:25
interesting. Okay, let us know how that one goes. Okay, now intuition was that natural for you? Did you have to work at it? Have you gotten better at it and midlife?
Tamsen Fadal 50:35
Better at midlife for sure.
Sarah Milken 50:36
I listened to it. No. favorite snack?
Tamsen Fadal 50:42
I'm a pizza girl. But snack wise. I love chips. Any kind of chips. salty chips.
Sarah Milken 50:48
Okay, favorite workout routine?
Tamsen Fadal 50:52
Yoga, probably.
Sarah Milken 50:54
So what's your workout routine look like in a week?
Tamsen Fadal 50:56
Two times yoga. Mostly on the weekends. I was sorry. That's my meeting for my I walk as much as I can. And then I do two weight training a week.
Sarah Milken 51:07
Okay, that's impressive. Okay, favorite t shirt brand? Gap. Favorite gene brand?
Tamsen Fadal 51:15
I like to frame right now. Um, I can frame
Sarah Milken 51:17
are you in like wide leg? Are you in skinny jean? What are you
Tamsen Fadal 51:21
know, I'm in wide leg right now. I wasn't skinny jean. But then I don't know. I saw a picture myself. And I was like, I think I need to not do that.
Sarah Milken 51:30
My teen daughter will tell you that they're out of style. I'm like, Yeah, but sometimes you just need them to shove in the boots, you know? Okay, what's the smallest thing we can do today to start our shift toward self recreation and midlife?
Tamsen Fadal 51:42
Oh, I'll cancel two things tomorrow that are not necessary for you to do take two things off your schedule tomorrow that are just not necessary and give yourself a little bit of a time block.
Sarah Milken 51:50
Love it. Okay. What would your bottom line advice be on finding this sweet spot in the second half of life?
Tamsen Fadal 51:57
My bottom line advice? Oh, I think my bottom was a good question. I think my bottom line advice would be to give yourself some time to really think about what it is that you that brings you joy and not what you think you have to do. Because we did the half twos for a long time.
Sarah Milken 52:12
That's for sure. Okay, we've shuffled our ship for today. I hope you guys have all loved Hamsun's life golden nuggets as much as I have. Tamsin, I've loved digging deep with you with our golden ship shovels today on this podcast if listeners want to find you, where can they find you?
Tamsen Fadal 52:29
Yes, hat Tamsin Fidel kind of everywhere. Nobody else has a name so it works out. Spell it for us. Ta M S ENFADAL
Sarah Milken 52:39
hula. Okay, as we wrap up this honest and fun chat with 10 things that you've learned in midlife. It seems like you've found the seat at your midlife table. How do we give ourselves permission to take up space?
Tamsen Fadal 52:52
Oh, how do we give ourselves permission to do it, remind yourself of how great you are of your last great accomplishment. Keep reminding yourself of that and then you'll be ready for your next one.
Sarah Milken 53:02
Love it Tamsin Fadil Emmy award winning journalist, TV personality podcaster author and menopause narrative influencer Thank you for saying yes thank you for chatting all things your life. Happy to call you a new friend of mine and Fab guest of the flexible neurotic podcast. Thank you.
Tamsen Fadal 53:20
Thanks for having me.
Sarah Milken 53:25
Hey, peeps, it's me again. I listened to this episode with Emmy award winning journalist podcaster evening news anchor and author Tamsin fuddle. So I could summarize a golden nuggets for you to have actionable items to start using today. I know that when I listened to a long episode with my midlife brain, I'm like, oh my god, I love that. But then I can't even fucking remember the specifics. This is why I come back and do a golden nugget summary. In this episode we discuss how to live boldly in midlife by taking a deep dive into Thompson's personal experiences on dealing with menopause aging, her public divorce and remarriage Golden Nugget number one, trust your inner intuition in midlife divorce. Thompson's key piece of advice for midlife women going through divorce is to trust your inner intuition. She explains that at first she was embarrassed by her public divorce because Tamsin and her then husband were running a matchmaking business. She was worried about what people would think since they were giving others advice, but we're having issues of their own. Tamsin says she realized that was the reason that she was with somebody was because she was too scared to be alone. When Tamsin started going to therapy and really doing the inner work, she realized more problems in the marriage. Once she didn't feel embarrassed anymore. She released those feelings and listen to her inner intuition. She was then able to figure out what she wanted, what she needed and who she was. Tamsin explains that her divorce wasn't the end for her but a new beginning. She also reminds us that wherever you are in life, you are going to be in the same spot a year from now unless you do things to change its time and its effort, but the things will change for the better. Golden Nugget number two, finding appreciation and aging. We aren't promised anything. Tamsin looks at aging and midlife through a different lens. Her mother died of breast cancer at the same age Tamsin was when she was facing her midlife journey at 49 Turning 50 So she was outliving her mom. Now the Tamsin is 50 to a year and six months older than her mother was when she passed away. She is grateful because when she was younger, she had a hard time visualizing life past the age of her mother and her passing. Tamsin explains that when she looks at her own menopause symptoms she thinks of what her mother was going through, while battling cancer and taking care of a family and menopause. Tamsin appreciates and sees the beauty of aging and midlife because she has learned that we are not promised anything. Her mother taught her to be present in these midlife years and really feel the moments. Golden Nugget number three pink flags. Now we all know what red flags are. But Tamsin teaches us about pink flags. Red flags are the negative things about a person that we see and we really just tried to ignore. Tamsin says that when we see these red flags and think, Oh, that's not a big deal. We can work on that. Then we turn them into pink flags. Tamsin explains that she did this through her relationship with her ex husband. She noticed these negative things saw him as a victim and thought she could fix them. Tamsin was downplaying how big these issues actually were. The bottom line is Tamsin reminds us that if you are trying to change a person, then you are going to be disappointed because they are not going to change unless they want to and may want to put in the work. Golden Nugget number four, losing the bold in midlife. Tamsin explains why some midlife women feel like they're just losing their mojo or losing their bold as she likes to call it, because that is what society has shown us we should be doing at this age. Tamsin jokes that we don't have to be just sitting on a park bench petting a cat do not have to wind down in this age of midlife. We're sort of expected to do so. We have to allow ourselves and create the situations to wind ourselves back up. This is one of the reasons why she started her platform because she wants to be a voice for midlife women in this community, helping to change the conversation and the narrative. Tamsin wants to help us flip the script and be bold in midlife. The gold is dripping off these nuggets, grab it, use it. There are three things you can do. First is subscribe to the podcast. Second, share it with some midlife friends, you know who like midlife shit. And third, write an apple review. writing reviews is really fucking annoying, and it's an extra step. But guess what? It really helps the podcast grow. You think your little review won't matter? But it does. And if you went to a show and everyone said my clap doesn't matter, then there will be no clapping. You all matter. DM me, you know I always respond. Oh, and of course follow my instagram at the flexible neurotics da love you talk soon.