Breaking Up With Friends & Making New Ones, in Midlife

Erin Falconer 0:00  

Who are going to be the best people that can see me can experience me can support me and of course, very important, the reciprocal that you also feel you have something to offer to them and to the relationship, right. So you have to not have they need to not only be aligned with you, but you need to be aligned with where they are, right.

Sarah Milken  0:24  

Hey, peeps, welcome to the flexible neurotic podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Milken. Yeah, you heard that right. I'm a real PhD doctor. Long, long ago, like last fucking year. I was sitting in the midlife funk wondering, was this it for me? That day, I realized I needed to get off my ass and start my midlife remix. I dusted off my PhD wipe the menopause, sweat off my forehead, grabbed my golden shit shovel and started digging deep to all my midlife bitches. It's not just luck, coffee and hormones that get you through your midlife remix. It's action steps. Let's do this. Hi, good peeps. This is the next episode of The flexible neurotic Podcast. I'm Dr. Sarah Milken, the flexible neurotic. Today I have a very cool guest. She's the author of How to get shit done. And another book I will mention in a second, she is editor in chief and co owner of pick the brain and online self improvement community. She was recently named one of the top digital entrepreneurs in LA. She has a master's degree in clinical psychology and for today's focus, she's the author of How to break up with your friends. Finding meaning connection and boundaries in modern friendships. And her name is Aaron Faulkner. Hi, I should have worn the yellow shirt. Honestly, I'm like, should I go change just

Erin Falconer  1:55  

know the lavender is looking. I think my It feels very on purpose.

Sarah Milken  2:00  

I know. But I had the pink shirt on it was this same shirt and pink but like I told you it had like a big fucking stain on it. Whatever. So let's talk about your book because as soon as I saw it, I was like, Okay, I have to have this girl on. I don't know anyone who knows her. I got to just like figure out how to get to her. Your book dives deep into adult friendships and all that goes with them. We're gonna get into it. I want to keep my intro short, because there's so much juicy stuff to talk about right now. Oh my god. Okay, so I enter into it. I know into it. My intentions for this episode as it is for all my episodes of the flexible neurotic is for us to dig deep with our golden shit shovels and a midlife edgy conversation. I'm sure you have a golden shovel. Right? Do I I know you probably have like 100 I want to talk about how midlife we need to give ourselves permission to reevaluate our adult friendships, to make friends break up with friends, why friendships are so important to our mental and physical health, and just normalizing changes in friendships without shame. And I think that's really important. And I hope you guys enjoy Aaron's tips for creating what I call our midlife tables. So stick around we're going to talk about making friends breaking up with friends ghosting as adults, Instagram friends versus real friends and friends and women culture ready to do this. Let's do it. Okay, so on Instagram a few weeks ago, I posted this post that was basically like, you guys, high school and middle school or over four and midlife now. Like we've earned the right to not sit at the Mean Girl table to not deal with mean girl bullshit. And I got a huge response. People are like me, Me too. Me too. And I think it's such an amazing and juicy topic. It's like almost too hard to talk about because it hits home. I don't know why there's so much shame around the friendship thing. Well, I

Erin Falconer  4:06  

mean, I think, for me, one of the epiphanies I had when I started writing this book is I think why there's the shame and why it's so hard to talk about it is because if you look at like, let's say just like in a classic therapy space, there's individual therapy, there's couples therapy, there is family therapy, and there's no such thing really as friendship therapy. And what that means to me is not the friend couples need to run out and go seek therapy. But out there in the larger sight guys, there is no language for navigating conflict in these relationships. There is no kind of accepted, globally accepted blueprint for how to get into new friendships and how to get out of existing friendships in the way that already exists. You know, when you're looking at like a romantic partner

Sarah Milken  4:54  

or kindergarteners right? How does ask if you can sit next to somebody Are you know how to share a red crayon?

Erin Falconer  5:02  

Right, exactly. So I think that's why we have all these feelings, we have all these kind of emotions and this kind of energy around these relationships, but we don't exactly know how to distill it, or what to do with it, or how to operate within them. And so it's why it feels so like, you know, even talking about like, how to break up with your friends, which, by the way, is, you know, is only one chapter Oh,

Sarah Milken  5:24  

totally, yeah, that's why this is not gonna be the focus of the whole discussion today.

Erin Falconer 5:29  

Right. But it's why it's so jarring of a topic. And that's kind of why I chose it as a title, just get people to stop and think about these relationships, because we just don't think about them. In the same, we aren't as clear have clarity around them, or visibility on them in the same way we do other relationships. And for me, that's a real missed opportunity.

Sarah Milken  5:48  

Yeah, it's so funny in the opening of your book, where it says, like, I bet you feel like an asshole, that you actually pick this book title off the shelf. You're so right, because you're like, oh, wait, I'm a person who like needs to break up with friends. Right, right. Oh, like, I have friendship issues. Yeah, I think that you say that vulnerability is one of the biggest keys to friendship. Will you explain that?

Erin Falconer  6:13  

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing is, is that I talked about this in the book in the sense that we all kind of show up and have our own sort of kind of persona in relationships. And that really only shows in or shares a part of really who you are, right. And for me, I think, like, in my own world, what I represent most of my friends is like the fixer, or you know, like people come to me, friends come to me when they have a problem, or they have something really important in their life, you know, if a job interview or whatever it is, like, tell me what to do, err, exactly lie got a runtime thing by ear, that kind of thing. And I really take pride in that, you know, role, I think it's an important role. And, but as I started exploring, you know, because I was doing the research for this book, I was like, what I'm only showing up in that way and these relationships, and the thing is, like, I realized, I have a real fear about my own vulnerability and showing up asking for help. Yeah, or representing that I might not have all the answers. And when I looked at that, I was like, Oh, well, I think it's I don't want to really ruin like my friendship, credit in the sense of like, that's why people are coming to me. But that's just a fear based response. Really, the thing is, I'm just scared to show a different part of myself. And so I think it's important to number one, understand how you're showing up in relationship. And number two, how can you then open the aperture and discover not just give more to the relationship, but it's also a total process of self discovery? What am I made of? What are my fears? Why am I afraid to show this part of myself or let me try showing a different part of myself? And you're not necessarily going to lead with that I'm not going to now all of a sudden show up crying? No, but people know that you're not perfect. Exactly. And I think that that just that, in and of itself ends up deepening a connection, there's a deeper understanding of who you are. And hopefully vice versa. And I would say, by the way, the same, you know, I have friends that are the ones that are always asking for advice, I would say the same thing to them, try showing up in a different way. Try finding your voice that says, hey, I've got a solution to this. And I'm

Sarah Milken  8:17  

not just the party girl, I'm not just the fun girl, like I have something to say.

Erin Falconer  8:22  

Exactly. So I think that you know, exploring all of the different kind of friend personas that are in your life is really interesting and say, Okay, where are the holes? Have I created kind of like an echo chamber in my world in the sense that everybody is providing the same thing? Do I need to open up and have some diverse you know, friendships? Do I need different needs met by different people? And so just really starting to do an audit of the people in your life? And well, of course, you start the audit is with yourself, right? Until you have a real understanding of kind of who you are, where you are, how you got here, and where you want to go. It's hard to cultivate, you know, you're kind of a team around you, you're kind of operating out there blindly, right? It's really important to understand the answers to those questions, and then kind of be strategic, I guess, for lack of a better word,

Sarah Milken  9:08  

because you're setting your midlife table. You're like, right, well, I want to be at this table. Right? I have a fun friend. I have the confidant Yeah,

Erin Falconer  9:19  

Ryder die you have exactly. And so the nostalgic friends so somebody you know, from your past that like, when you connect with them, really you connect to a different part of yourself at different stages in place of time of who you are. And sometimes that's magical, right? Kind of that remembering, oh, this is where I came from. This is you know, these are my past experiences. Sometimes they're not good. And it's like, I that's no longer who I am. And I need to kind of separate myself from this energy because I'm just not that person anymore. So again, it's the paying attention part, which we don't do currently that I think is so important.

Sarah Milken  9:52  

It's so funny. I think we talked about this on our like, Intro call but growing up I felt like my brother who was 21 One It's younger than me like, yeah, he had a million zillion friends. And I was sort of like the pretty Nerd Girl with the boyfriend all through high school. And I was always like, God, you have, like so many friends, but I never wanted that many friends. But at the same time, I also felt like, maybe my criteria was too high. I wanted every friend to meet every single need that I had. And like, as soon as they like, didn't meet that need or show up. I was like, Okay, you're out.

Erin Falconer 10:27  

Right? Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, and I think I think we talked about this, but it's great. I think this is a really important point. So you're glad you brought it up? Here is like, we have to understand that nobody can be everything. Yes. Only we can be everything to us, right. And so it's again, really looking at like, what does this relationship what's the power of this relationship for me? And that's what I go to this relationship for? And what is the strength of this relationship? And that's what I go to this for. And hopefully, when you kind of line up those relationships, they're not all delivering the same thing.

Sarah Milken  11:02  

Yeah, no. So that's how I've sort of like when I was thinking about this conversation, I was like, Okay, if you're setting your midlife table, midlife friends are different than right friends in your teens, like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about how they're different. And how this is the time in your life where you actually have more agency.

Erin Falconer 11:20  

Yeah, so what I like to joke is like, often your friends in your teens are the purpose they serve as number one as a self discovery vehicle for you, this is a time where obviously, you are really starting to understand you know who you are, this is the time where, you know, in elementary school, or you'd like the younger years, you know, up until like 10, or 11, or 12, you're really just put in rooms with different children the same age. And so you know, it's a pick, you know, maybe it's there is not a lot of kind of choice in the situations in the teen years, this is the first time that you're actually really making choices like I'm going to spend time with these people in school, I really like this hobby, I'm going to go do classes on that. And I'm going to make friends in that group. And so you starting to become strategic and who you're spending your time with. But I always like to joke that often these relationships, they teach you a lot about yourself, and they teach you kind of who you don't ultimately want to be friends. Right? Because you're changing so fast. And it's like, it's almost easier to say like your five years I Oh, right. I didn't like that. So I made a different choice. And later life. I didn't like that. So I made a different choice. And later i That's not to say if you still have a friend from your teens, that's probably actually it's great. But I feel like the information there is also just like process of elimination of who you really want to get down to who

Sarah Milken  12:36  

Yeah, your things on you're like, oh, I want to be the cheerleader girl, do I want to study or like why do I want to fit in? Do I want to make this sort of rebellious outsider with blue hair?

Erin Falconer 12:48  

Right. This is relationships I think are quintessential, as I said, and I think you agree to forming your own identity. Yes. All right. And that's kind of the the real larger purpose there. What is you said, What group do I fit in? And then as we get older, we start to really be able to like identify choices, and and people, you know, energetically who we resonate with. And you know, the truth is early 20s. I mean, sorry, 20s. And 30s 20s traditionally is more career focused, you know, and then getting into like, late 20s or early 30s is maybe more family. This is broad strokes.

Sarah Milken  13:23  

Yeah. And then you're like Gen mommy friends, your mommy great friends.

Erin Falconer 13:28  

So yeah, and there's a lot of situational stuff going on there. You're still actively choosing people, but it's more situational. And it's only when you kind of have some freedom or distance from these major life phases. Right, which now, you know, when you're talking about midlife, now it's like, I think the playing field is wide open in the sense of like, it's not necessarily like situational, like I'm on the side, you know, a soccer field watching a game. Okay, I like this.

Sarah Milken  13:53  

It's like almost the opposite of that. Like, I think in your book, you talk about so much about this idea of intentionality, right? Yeah. And it's like, what are we doing to create the friendships and the energies that we want in our lives,

Erin Falconer  14:08  

right, to bring it full circle to what you said, I think the teen years are quintessential for developing who you are, and now that you fully hopefully at you know, 40s are well on your way to knowing who you are. Now you choose friends who support who you are, as opposed to like the discovery process of who you are, which is how it all starts in the teen years,

Sarah Milken  14:32  

but I also think in midlife, like especially for me and a lot of the people who listen to this podcast is like there is an element of newly becoming and midlife reinvention journey and drive the second half of life which there is a lot of becoming who's going to be in that energy with you. Yeah, like who wants to see you grow? And like you talk about this idea of friendships. The ideal friendships have potential for growth and elasticity City, the friendships that are like from 20 years ago, it doesn't mean that friend can't evolve with you. But there might be a strain there.

Erin Falconer 15:08  

Yeah, but don't just assume they will. Correct because chances are larger than not. And it depends on the trajectory of your own life, if you're somebody that is moved out, you know, I left where I was born when I was 16. And then I went away to university, and then I went away to another university, and I moved to you know, so I, in my whole journey, I have had a much different trajectory than somebody that is still lives in their hometown, right, and the relationships that you have, are going to be different just because of how you've operated in your life. And so I think it's really important to, like, look at that, and then say, you know, as you kind of just said, like, who are going to be the best people that can see me can experience me can support me, and, of course, very important, the reciprocal, that you also feel you have something to offer to them and to the relationship, right. So you have to not have they need to not only align with you, but you need to be aligned with where they are, right.

Sarah Milken  16:06  

Yeah. And I also think that you also so keenly talk about this idea of, it's in midlife, it's almost easier and more healthy for you to be friends with people who see you the way you want to be seen, right? Absolutely. Like if you were always sort of like the chubby girl who doesn't get it, or the girl with pimples, who've done it. And those friends were from that time frame, and like now you see yourself totally differently, you sort of want to be and have some of that energy that sees you how you want to be right. That's not how you were

Erin Falconer  16:44  

right, exactly. And that's why it's so important to look at those legacy friendships, because so much of like, the emotional or the historical kind of habits or energies are implicit with them in them, right. And so you want to kind of say, actually was, who's I was just being interviewed by somebody, it was actually a man. And he was like, I just had to end a friendship with somebody that kept from high school that kept referring to me, and I forget what name he said, but he had some really childish and kind of, yeah, not offensive, but some name that he was like, his friends used to always call him. And he grew out of that, and that there's this one friend that like, I guess, on Facebook, or whatever text, he's like, hey, whatever that did, and it just bothered him. So and he told the guy, Hey, you know, I'm no longer that and the guy just kept kind of, he couldn't get out of his own kind of thought loop on that. And like, that's important, right? You know, he's like, I'm not that guy anymore. You got to stop calling me that guy. And he ended the friendship over it.

Sarah Milken  17:40  

So that leads me to the next question of like, when do you know you need to break up with a friend. And when can you just compartmentalize it and say, You know what, that friends kind of like, and like in my middle school years, but like, I can deal with it like this sort of threshold,

Erin Falconer  17:58  

the first thing is, look, if you're growing apart from somebody, and or growing out of a relationship, a lot of the times they are also are growing out of the relationship. That's why the fade away kind of happens, if it is kind of the unspoken expectation is that two of you are going in different directions. And so you're, you know, reaching out less and less frequently, and blah, blah, blah, fine, you can let that just go out into the ether. There's no reason to call some big let's talk about this, right? Because the expectations, or the understanding, even if it's subconscious are aligned, you're both on the same page. If that's not the case, and you feel like you're going off on one thing, and the other person is keeps trying to engage you messaging you, or let's get a coffee or drink it, and you are constantly finding yourself saying like, No, I can't excuses, you feel bad, there's guilt, you did a die, you're irritated, did it and that person is not getting the message or just really believes in the friendship and wants to like, keep it alive. For me, this is a time when I think you you have to kind of draw attention to what's going on and express that, you know, it's out of love and deference for the great relationship we've had in the past that I just feel like I keep letting you down. And I want you to know that. You know, and you can have a conversation about this. But just from a bandwidth perspective, I can't be there for you in the way that I think that you are wanting me to show up for you. That's the kind of conversation we have in that situation. But if you're not sure I mean for me the first litmus test is like and I joke about this all the time, but imagine your phone rings and you see a purse X person's name on the call display what is your innate reaction are you like? Or are you like diving to get the phone right talk about in the book, just taking a pen and a piece of paper and writing down everybody in your kind of immediate inner circle, maybe some in like the middle circle. Just watch that name. As you write it down. What is your gut response to it right? And if you're feeling negative, or if worse, if you're feeling Nothing at all. This is a good litmus test for you to spend some time there and say, okay, hold on, how did we get here? If after careful evaluation, you're like, Okay, well, we got here because this person is just not aligned with who I am now how I want to be seen how I want to be experienced out in the world, then it's time to like, do something about it, right. And so there's that, if it's, you want to look at your energy is every time you hang out with that person, or get off the phone with them. If you feel drained. That's not where you want to be. You want to feel kind of alive. And you don't have to be like energize like, you just got home from a concert. But intrinsically we know if you're paying attention to your your body and your energy, like just how do I feel every time I leave this person? So you want to pay attention to these things that are like often very subtle, and Oh, easy to overlook, but they're meaningful, right? And then you want to look at, do you spend a lot of time when you are with this person? Are you constantly talking about negative things? Are you constantly you know, talking shit or not even talking to you, but just complaining about where you're at in life, you want to spend time you the relationship? Certainly should witness like highs and lows in life and experience high lows, but net, you want to be having positive interactions with the other person, right? So you want to pay pay attention to your own behavior when you're with this person? Is that who you want to be? You know, look at this, we look at how you're behaving this relationship? Is that who you want to be? If the answer is yes, great. If the answer is like, no, that's not really the person I want to be you need to take you need to look at it and say, Okay, how do we get here kind of backtrack. Right? Yeah. And then then the next thing is really to look, we always talk about, like, if you're breaking up with somebody that you know, you the focus is really on, like, the grief or the pain of the other person. But before you break up with somebody, you really want to sit with yourself and imagine the grief, how are you going to feel without this person in your life? And really kind of visualize that? That gives you a lot of information? If the answer when you're really sitting there calmly and imagining is like a big sense of relief. Okay, this is great information to have, you know what I mean? If it's like real sadness and pain, and like, Oh, God, no, that's also good information. And maybe the maybe it's much more worth it to take the time to, like, work out with that person, how you got to here as opposed to like, now, how am I going to get out of this?

Sarah Milken  22:21  

Right, I think in terms of what you just described so beautifully, it's like, you're basically describing a whole friendship audit, where it's like, Okay, let me take a look. Just to sort of summarize it, it's like, let me take a look at all the characters in my life, right? And what role each of them has, then looking at the role and expectations that you have for each of these people. Are they meeting them? Are you meeting the expectations of what you think they want from you? Because it's also about how you show up for them? Like, you can't make every phone call about you? Right? Are you listening? Also, do your friendship support who you are becoming in midlife? When if not? Do you sort of tone down the friendship? Or do you have like a real breakup when you're just like, I can't take it anymore? And figuring out how to deepen the friendships that you really do love, right? Because, as we all know, very important. Yeah, those friendships, they take work. I mean, like your book, you say it takes, what was it? 200 hours? Yeah. Yeah, it's like 200 hours of time plus vulnerability to create a quote, good friend, right? Yeah, that's a lot of time.

Erin Falconer  23:38  

Yeah, it is. It is. And by the way, those are 200 of like, concentrated hours, they're not 200 hours, like sitting in a loud restaurant, we'll all have everybody at the table scrolling Instagram, it's like 200 meaningful hours. I don't mean you need to be staring deep into each other. But you have to be doing you like collected experience. Yes, exactly. I want to be clear also that like, if you realize that, like a friendship has like dropped in its importance in your life, it doesn't always mean that you need to like, quote, unquote, break up. But just the idea of consciously witnessing this and then choosing to put your energy somewhere else and less energy on this relationship, just that mental shift is enough, often to shift the nature of the relationship. So that's why it's so without having to do some big breakup. Now, if somebody is, if the relationship is really taking from you and you feel shitty being in it, then they'll do something about it. But if it's just like, we're just not quite connecting in the same way, but I still have love and respect for this person. Just kind of understanding like energetically, I'm placing my time and my commitment to you know, these five or six people, this person will still be in my world, they're friends or friends. It's not that but I understand that like energy Generally, I'm not going to be spending as much time on this relationship as I am with the ones I've identified that really makes sense for me, just that just bringing it from the subconscious. And the conscious, I think starts to shift a narrative without Yeah,

Sarah Milken  25:13  

because then you do a lot of guilt parading where you're like, Oh, I didn't respond to that text that is like, pick up that phone call. Right? Right. And I feel like if you can take the sort of like the weight of it out, and you're just like, Okay, this friend right now, it's like a different season for that. Exactly. Exam like she used to be like my mommy best friend. But now it's like, we have different things going on in our lives. It doesn't mean we'd like each other less, except just means there's other energies. And the other thing, which I think you talked about in the book, too, is sometimes people have like a whole side story going on, that you don't even know about.

Erin Falconer  25:53  

That's what we do. So often as we guess, what is happening, or overtime, you realize, like that a friend is not responding to you with the frequency that she did before. Or he is constantly saying no to plans, we start creating this narrative, like making basically making shit up. Yeah, well, she's doing this because if that didn't I, you know, dented, then we create this whole world, which is so often untrue. I was just talking to someone the other day, who was saying, you know, she almost had a total falling out with one of her really good friends. And over this exact thing, like the person was not being responsive. And it was over a course of maybe like six or eight months. And woman that was talking to me was like, she was getting so upset, and so mad and kind of passive aggressive. And the, and it turns out that that her friend's mother was diagnosed with cancer, who knows what was going on with her. But the story that this woman that was talking to me that nothing to do with that she

Sarah Milken  26:51  

hates me, she doesn't want to talk to me

Erin Falconer  26:54  

judging me for this. She had a whole narrative as well. So often these things aren't personal. And we take them immediately. So personally, but what's the answer? There is the communication. So key, one phone call one text, hey, I feel like you're not around. I want to make sure like, I haven't done anything, is everything. Okay? Is there any way I can support you, all of a sudden, when she did say something, eight months later, the friend was like, I'm so sorry. I've just been in this just an app. And it was during COVID. So with the pandemic, and rice and the illness in the tree, you can imagine it was just like a whole vortex that her friend was sucked into. But again, like the creation of a narrative to defend behavior when it's such a long Well, the role.

Sarah Milken  27:36  

I mean, it starts in our teenage years. I mean, I've a 15 year old daughter, and we create these fucking loops of narratives, right? And then we're like, looking at a snap, and then a text and who is in that fucking picture? And she told me, she couldn't come over because she was studying, but she's at this person's house, and then it becomes this whole crazy thing. And then my daughter finds out that somebody's mom couldn't give that person a ride at that time, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Erin Falconer  28:03  

Exactly. And energy. Yeah, is like, like having you know, and it's like, oh, boy, why don't you just ask directly? Hey, Odetta. Oh, no, I wasn't my mom, dad about Oh, cool. There's no energy lost, right?

Sarah Milken  28:19  

And you also do like, by the time you're in midlife, like, we should be able to have the skills to say like, Hey, I feel a little weird, right? Or have you sort of checked out on me, you know, something. But to just let all this weirdness percolate? I think is a lot and you talk a lot about and obviously, there's tons of research studies about the importance of friendship, I would love for you to tell us like a few of your favorite studies and the most interesting findings you found in researching this book, because I'm not sure everyone really understands the importance of friendship to physical health,

Erin Falconer  28:56  

right? Yeah, that was one of the the really kind of surprising things that I stumbled onto about number one, not only how many studies have been done, but how many studies are like future facing on the impact of kind of having tight, close friendships. And I kind of always knew like about the mental health benefits, but there are so many physical health benefits. And the first point that I where I kind of started is this idea of the blue zones where, you know, for anybody that listening that doesn't know, these are like the pockets of the world. I think there's like five or six around the world where those communities live substantially longer and substantially healthier than the general kind of world population. And so social scientists and scientists, period doctors have studied these communities. And on the, you know, consistently on in the top three of what is attributed to why this is going on, is tight, intimate relationships. I don't mean sexual relationships, where you are really connected to other people, your community. And so if you look at it, and just in that way, it's these relationships are co responsible for not just creating longer life but a much healthier life. And there are studies like they reduce heart disease, I think by like I know, which is pretty crazy heart attack something like 25%. And should you have one of these, you know, heart disease or heart attacks, when you have a close, tight knit friend group, your recovery time is cut by like, 80%? Because you know, you matter. Right, exactly. And all of this stuff, stuff is connected, you know, your emotions, your physical health, your intellectual health, they're all interconnected. One of the studies that I found really interesting is a Swedish study, and they studied people that caught the common cold. And somebody that was isolated and did not have a tight knit group around them was 200 times more likely to catch the common cold. So like it has a major impact on immunity. Oh, well, this is also one of the things that I thought was so interesting about this so that Dr. Vivek Murthy is the Surgeon General of the United States right now. And has done so many studies on longevity and well being and stuff like that, is now considering you know, when you go into a doctor's very like a checkup, a wellness checkup, they say, you know, how many outcomes you fill out the forms? How many drinks of alcohol, do you have a week? Do you smoke any cigarettes a week? They're considering putting on for those wellness checks? How many times a week do you interact in a meaningful way socially? That is literally how important it is in the same section of the forum that talks about, you know, the carcinogens from smoking? It's like, important it is. Yeah, these things are not just nice to have.

Sarah Milken  31:51  

Yeah, we take them for granted. We think like you say, friendships are like a luxury. They're superfluous. They're like the icing on the cake. But they're actually like a key ingredient. Now, I also want to talk about how intention mid life can help us feel more alive. Mm hmm. And how these friendships can help us do that, because I know you cite in the book, that friendship should be seen as relevant as hunger or thirst.

Erin Falconer  32:19  

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, for me, I always say you're nothing more than the choices you make, right. And in the group of friends, in terms of like the friendship category, we just aren't actively making choices. We're letting a lot of these relationships just happen to us. That's the passive position, right? You want to be in anything out there actively making choices, right? It's

Sarah Milken  32:40  

doing work. It's doing Euler, yeah, let NASA thing is no one want to do more work.

Erin Falconer  32:46  

It's more upfront work. So that then you can kind of get a set of practices in place that almost become automatic pilot. I mean, you have to keep checking in. But the work is upfront. It's top heavy, right? And it can be daunting.

Sarah Milken  32:58  

I want to talk about ghosting. First of all, I want to define it because I don't I'm not sure everyone knows what it means. And we think they do. And then I want to talk about why it's chickenshit. And why we shouldn't do it.

Erin Falconer  33:13  

Why? Well, yeah, to me, ghosting is kind of making a conscientious choice to not engage with the person when they are clearly still engaging with you. Right? So it's like

Sarah Milken  33:22  

ignoring tax, ignoring phone calls pretending the person's invisible.

Erin Falconer  33:26  

Right, exactly. So I want to be clear that that's not quite the situation that I was talking about before when two friends kind of subconsciously understand that drifting in a different direction and generate, right, that's not ghosting. Yeah. So

Sarah Milken  33:39  

there's basically, I mean, with the breakup with the friendships, let's be clear, there's the ghosting, or you just sort of disappear and become visible. There's the in person contact of like, this is not working for me, right, blah, blah, blah. And then there's the natural drift that I already say that and then there's the ghosting of where you become invisible.

Erin Falconer  34:00  

Right? Yeah. And so for me, like I think so what I have a problem with ghosting, the biggest problem I have with it, I mean, I don't think it's a good look regardless. But why it's a problem is because you leave a lot of unresolved energy out there, that you think you've kind of made a choice to not respond to this person. But let me tell you something, because you have chosen to do it this way. You have so many unresolved feelings of guilt or conflict that you're not even aware of. It's like a tab that you left open on your computer screen that it's like, it feels harmless, but it's actually draining energy. You know, it's draining energy. And so if I look at my own thing, if I were to like choose ghosts, you know, to go somebody over just like call out that this is over is because I would be like, You know what, I don't want to have that conversation with the person that's going to be way too hard to hear. I'm making to you know, the truth of the matter is if you actually think of it on the flip side, the person that's being ghosted, you Well, it might be it'd be harder at first upfront to have a conversation with somebody and kind of be broken up with that person is spinning their wheels, trying to figure out why you're not responding to them, they're probably talking to other people trying to figure out why you're not responding to them. They're sending you energy, trying to choose different angles to get attention from you, or to get you to engage with them, even if they give up and kind of forget, you know, give up on the relationship. It's still a really unprocessed wound. And when I was interviewing women for this book, a couple of times I interviewed I'm thinking of two specifically two very strong, very successful women, they don't know each other. And they both told me a story about how they had been ghosted. And as they were individually telling me these stories, it was like, all of a sudden, emotionally, they were right back there. And again, these are like successful, outwardly very competent women. And they weren't, like, their whole energy was just like, and I don't know what happened. And then we were doing this and then she just stopped talking to me. And I was like, so upset, and I couldn't figure it out. And now the now that I think about it, I still don't understand why she's not talking. And so it's very much alive until you put closure around it. And so it's always I think, the power move, for your own energy to be able to address these things head on, and it doesn't have to be huge. You just need to be clear that this is no longer going to work for you.

Sarah Milken  36:23  

No, you know, what I think is weird to Aaron is like, I've been ghosted before in my life, right. And like, I remember when my kids switch schools, a friend in particular, like literally stopped talking to me, okay. And you know what I mean? It's, it's like a friend that we talk to every day. Right, right. And I was like, hello, hello. Right. And I never got an answer. Right. And I texted her, and I called, and then I asked a friend, and then I reached out to her, and I was like, Can we make a time to talk? And she didn't respond. And then I came back six months later, and was like, Can I come? And she's like, Oh, sure, we'll talk this weekend. Don't worry, data still haven't spoken to her. It's been like four years. You know what I mean? And like, I'll show up in an event and she's there. And it's like, the elephant in the room. Right? You know, like, that's about her. Sarah, that's not about you. And as many times as you say that to yourself, it's

Erin Falconer 37:21  

still feels shitty, it still feels shitty. Right? I would have

Sarah Milken  37:25  

rather have had her say to me, Hey, I'm just pissed that you left, right. And like, I don't know if we can be friends. Yeah. But instead, it's like, you feel weird. I feel weird. And now this whole thing is weird.

Erin Falconer  37:38  

Right? So there's just so much unresolved. Oh, and energy around this common it's totally unnecessary. Anything also what that people don't realize as for that friend of yours, or ex friend of yours, how fortifying and how powerful of a move it is, would have been for her to just say whatever, you know, even even if it is irrational, right? Even rational, I just can't deal with the fact that you you left. Okay. And that is obviously would seem like very much her issue that probably goes way back in her history, right. But even just saying I look, the truth is I just can't deal I've thought about it, I've tried to I can't get over it. I'm just pissed that you left. And so I'm just letting you know where I'm at. And I don't think this is going to resolve itself. And then it's, and you can take some time to kind of like oh, man, and then you can you can realize, oh, this is definitely a her thing. It's not a me thing. And you can move on it, you're not still it is sort of

Sarah Milken  38:33  

the idea you talk about called rupture and repair, where it's like you do have a little bit of a confrontation, but then you can move on from there.

Erin Falconer  38:41  

Well, no rupture and repair. So that when I'm talking about rupture, and repair, is that and this is why it's so important to be able to navigate conflict within these relationships is like in the classic therapy, you know, therapeutic sense, when a client has or a patient has a falling out with a therapist, you know, gets pissed or, or feels disrespected or whatever doesn't feel great about what's just happened. They get mad, and then they're able to come back and say you really pissed me off, because dah dah, dah, dah. And then they can work together to get on the other side of that and what happens and Emily's when you work together to get on the other side of that the bond is in here. So it's like the

Sarah Milken  39:17  

opposite of ghosting. Basically opposite. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say is that yeah, yeah, I

Erin Falconer  39:23  

try and work through the conflict, right? Because on the other side of that is where the power lies, right? That's where the good stuff and yet we're so in front of like, don't want to have a conflict don't want to have a conflict, I'll just go or I'll just or, or I won't go some but emotionally I will become numb to them. You know, and that's a huge problem. Right? Because, again, super missed opportunity. And it's so draining to do that to not be able to get out what is irritating your bios. I

Sarah Milken  39:52  

think it depends on how important that friendship is. Sure, because like for me, I had something in the past 22 years. Were one of my close friends invited this person to a small party at her house. And I was like, at first I was like, pissed, I wasn't gonna say anything, I had issue with that other person in my path like blah, blah, blah. And then I finally was like, I can't have the same level of intimacy with this friend. Unless I say something. She doesn't need to change her the invite status of that person, but she just needs to know how I feel. Because I don't even know. And so I told her, and she was like, Oh, my God, like, I had no idea you felt that way.

Erin Falconer  40:35  

Right? Exactly. That's the thing. People are so busy, there's so much we expect them to have this total understanding of everything we're doing. It was impossible. We don't even know what we're doing in our own lives. How old are you? You know what I mean? So just communicate, right? And then if there's some big hysterical review done, then there's some big hysterical reaction from your your friend and like, this is my party, you can't you know, whatever, will you whoa, hold on a second, you know what I mean? And then you there's something even larger to address it. But so often, it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that. Had I known that I would have, you know, made a different choice? Or do you know, now that that'll never,

Sarah Milken  41:12  

but you may not have gotten that response? Right? The person might have been like, Fuck you, goodbye. I mean, that's possible to

Erin Falconer  41:18  

that's possible. But you still have to kind of operate out of a place of, you know, truth and communicate. And if that's what I'm saying, if someone's got a really big problem with that, then you've got a larger problem with with this person than just the invite, right? Their reaction to you being honest, and kind of telling, telling them you know, what rubs you the wrong way, is not the problem. But I also

Sarah Milken  41:37  

think that if it's someone who's in your sort of your main circle, inner circle, it benefits you to say something. If it's like the secondary tertiary acquaintance, the fuck it, whatever

Erin Falconer  41:52  

I want to put you out. That's the thing. Like when we're talking about having these honest conversations and connect, you can only do that with a very small handful of people. You don't want to be out otherwise, you just think having conversations about what teenagers

Sarah Milken  42:04  

to like, my daughter's like, I can have a deep dive with every single person who pisses me off in the course of the day. Totally. But I can with some of my best friends.

Erin Falconer  42:14  

Exactly. And that's why I think it's really important to identify who is that crew? You know, is this still the right table for me, because what those relationships require are a lot of work. And you can't be just doling out, you know, you're having these conversations with every single person that you kind of orbit around.

Sarah Milken  42:32  

Totally. Okay, wait, I want to talk to you about something that's like, slightly controversial. And I know we've kind of brought it up in our phone call. Right. I hope everyone takes us in the right way.

Erin Falconer 42:45  

As well, me telling,

Sarah Milken  42:46  

I know, I know. But I want to talk about the difference between Instagram friends and real friends.

Erin Falconer 42:52  

Mm hmm. Yeah, well, there is there's a big difference. And you know, Instagram friends and you know, social media, friends can really serve a purpose, they can have a role for sure. I don't think they can come close to having the same impact as your friends that you're engaging with, you know, in real life, on the phone sharing, you know, having shared experiences with, but they certainly serve a purpose. They can also though, kind of be misleading, because it's unclear, like what is the responsibility to an end, you know, and Instagram relationship or, you know, what is the etiquette around these the social etiquette in these relationships. And so I think there's a lot of like, lack of clarity in them. And that's where, you know, some of the kind of angst comes from

Sarah Milken  43:35  

now do you think that people become sort of reliant on I don't want to say fake but the social media friends?

Erin Falconer  43:44  

Well, I think they trick themselves into believing that they have a much broader spectrum and a much deeper engagement and connection. I

Sarah Milken  43:52  

do think there is a roll I mean, from my experience with this podcast, and with my Instagram account, there is a role for relatability normalization feeling like you're not the only one like knowing that other women in midlife cry or other midlife women want to like walk around with a pitchfork sometimes. Yeah, and there is a sort of normalization. Like, I get hundreds of DMS from women who are like, thank you so much for talking about this. Like, I'm not the only one. And it's interesting because you're like, at what point is that a friendship? Right? Versus like an Instagram connection? It's interesting,

Erin Falconer  44:35  

right? Yeah, look, I think the internet and social social media actually have amazing benefits, your your ability to connect with so many different types of people to help, you know, in that connection to help so many, you know, feel seen and understood and we live in a very big city, but a lot of people don't they don't have access to like, dynamic experiences. And so this So social media is really important in those circumstances, I think just to what you're saying now is like, there is a lack of clarity around how connected are we? What is the responsibility around this connection? Like, what are the expectations around this connection, if they aren't the same, it's just not the same as those close groups of friends. But that doesn't mean that they can't be valuable, and that you can be valuable to them as well. Right? I would say you probably, you know, with these people have kind of a lot of maybe, like, shared things in common, and you like interacting with them? And those are both good things, but are they somebody that is really going to understand how you operate in the world? Not quite, even though you're doing a very unfiltered version, you know, right. Right. You're kind of

Sarah Milken  45:48  

like just I don't know if there's an answer I just think it's an interesting thing that sort of played out in my in my own life over the past

Erin Falconer  45:56  

I one of the most complex things I think about it is taking the the friendships that are your in person friendships and watching then how they that plays out through social media, because, you know, there's Yeah, we talk is that that start to emerge where you're like, Ah, this is weird like that the person that I'm seeing on Instagram, or the way this person is behaving on Instagram, is not really the way they they're behave in our relationship offline. And so it can be confusing.

Sarah Milken  46:24  

One last thing that I do want to talk to you about that you talked about in your book, which I find fascinating is you say that friends are just for you individually, but they're amazing for couples,

Erin Falconer  46:35  

right? Yeah, yeah, totally. There's a really, a psychotherapist called Esther Parral. Who I, if anybody listening does Yeah, she's she's, she's an absolute genius. And she has a really cool podcast called Where should we begin where she sees couples. And what I've heard her talking about, you know, over the last year, she might have been talking about it longer. It's just kind of when I've, you know, started being in my world, this idea of friendship, she talks a lot about this idea that like romantic partners these days, contrary to like 3040 years ago, are the other the partner is like, everything, to the other person, they are co parenting, you know, every single person that works in their office, we've also now just been working for home for two years, you're not just talking about yoga, often you're going doing yoga together, we're doing hikes. So like everything is very in mash. And that puts a lot of pressure on the partner and and that partner also sees you often in the same way, that's a lot of pressure on you. As I said, nobody can be everything to you, only you can be everything to you, right. And so why friendships are very important is so that you can offload some of that everythingness onto other people, right. And like, this is my workout buddy friend, this is my whatever so that you can get separation from certain kind of subjects and activities within your relationship to leave space for kind of magic and for the unknown, and we don't need to know every single thing about our partner. If we did then what where's the mystery? Where's the magic? It's boring, right? It becomes monotonous. And so having these relationships that fulfill different things in you so that you can kind of save the really special stuff for the romantic relationship because there are so much not special stuff, you know, the mundane you know, the drudgery of life, the school pickups, the you know, whatever the dry cleaning the paying taxes, that's all it's

Sarah Milken  48:32  

I think it's also about like, in midlife too. It's like finding that middle ground. One woman said last week that her husband ended up cheating on her and she thinks it's because she was too dependent on him. She was too needy for every day. And he was like, oh, I need some space. And whatever I someone else, a man had said to me, my wife has so many friends like I'm irrelevant. She doesn't even really rainy. Right? And it's interesting that those two extremes came up in conversations in one week, right? And then I read your stuff. And I was like, God, there has to be like a happy medium in here. Sure. I've, you know, you don't want to be overly dependent people also in a relationship need to feel relevant,

Erin Falconer  49:14  

right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to look at it another way. If you're in a situation where your partner has 6000 friends and can't see you, that is not a good sign for the relationship, not just because of the friends it's like, what are you avoiding in that relationship, you need to go out and seek, you know, either distraction or refuge and all these other people, if the person has no friends or is you know, spending exclusively their time with the partner? Why does that person not feel competent to carve out their own personality, their own way of being you can do that and still be completely committed in a romantic partnership with somebody you've got to be able to sell find yourself though and have two distinct voices within that union. And so that is also a problem. So you You know, you definitely want to log in your friendship style is very important to what's going on with your own romantic relationship.

Sarah Milken  50:06  

Yeah, I mean, look, my husband doesn't he's actually pretty invested in like, you know, he knows like who the kids friends are and like what the dramas of the day and like blah blah blah. But he's not gonna listen to it in the same way that a good friend well up close sometimes like if I want him to hear something, but I don't want to look at that look of like, Why the fuck are you telling me this? Like all tell my friend on the phone knowing I started listening. And then of course, he's so nosy. Then he starts asking me questions right over here is view big?

Erin Falconer  50:38  

Oh, that's a good strategy.

Sarah Milken  50:40  

I know. I know. I'm like, Oh my God. I'm like, don't make a mistake. By doing that. I think that your point is well taken. I think that couples depending on each other for everything is just too much.

Erin Falconer 50:52  

Right? Yeah, exactly. Just can't there's one person can't be everything, that the weight of the pressure of that is not sustainable.

Sarah Milken  50:59  

Yeah. And even it's like having a best friend in high school. And that best friend doesn't show up at school because she's sick. And you're like, What the fuck do I do with myself? Yeah, exactly. That's like the worst feeling in the world. Well, I have loved talking to you. I feel like I could like set my midlife table all day long. I feel like you and I are gonna have to go to walk me on rows. I'm down. 100 I have to drag you out of your house. You can cancel on me. I will

Erin Falconer  51:23  

say yes, I can.

Sarah Milken  51:27  

And your book, tell us the title again, since you know it,

Erin Falconer  51:31  

how to break up with your friends finding meaning connection and boundaries in modern friendship. Got that

Sarah Milken  51:37  

one down. And I also want to say that Aaron has a lot of scripts in the book too. I don't want to spill the tea on all of that. But she goes through a lot of different scenarios and scripts. So if you're looking for a way to figure out how to get in and out of a situation with a friend, that's definitely there. Okay, so where can everyone find you?

Erin Falconer  51:57  

Well, the books are available everywhere. Amazon Barnes and Noble and indie booksellers, and I'm at Aaron faulkner.com. Or pick the brain calm and at Aaron Faulkner or at pick the brain on all things social.

Sarah Milken  52:08  

Oh, okay. I want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope everyone has walked away with a long list of shit. They can start thinking about shit they can start doing. Thank you, Aaron Faulkner.

Erin Falconer  52:20  

Thank you so much.

Sarah Milken  52:26  

Hey, peeps, it's me again. I listen to this episode with Aaron Falconer. So I could summarize the golden nuggets for you to have actionable items to start using today. I know that when I listened to a long episode, I'm like, oh my god, I fucking love that. And then I can't even remember the specifics. This is why I come back and do a golden nugget summary. I don't get every single thing but I sort of just try to get the highlights. In this episode we discussed breaking up with friends and the importance of midlife friendships golden nugget. Number one, what is a friendship audit? And why do you need it? When you're evaluating a friendship? One of the first things Aaron says you should do is an audit of friendship audit, not only on your friends, but on yourself too. You need to look at what each of your friends is bringing to the table in your friendships. Are they serving a good purpose? Are they delivering the same thing as other friends? Are they perhaps super negative? You also need to think about how they make you feel when you're with them. Do you feel super psyched and like positive vibes and energy? Or do you walk away feeling like fuck, that was awful. And it's like an energy vampire. Are you excited to connect with them? Do you want to just cancel on them every five seconds? Do they respect and support you as a person? All of these factors are important when doing a friendship audit. Because friendship is not a luxury. It's a necessity for mental and physical health and involves work friendships are not always easy. Aaron states anything important in life is worth the work just like we talk about in this podcast all the time. Golden Nugget number two, intentional acts in friendships. When we were in our teenage years, a lot of the friends we had were situational. You were in this sport, that club this class, etc. Aaron explains that as we grow, we realize that we want to surround ourselves with people who make us feel good about themselves and it becomes a process of elimination. This is when deciding on friendships becomes an intentional act. In midlife, we're actively making choices on friendships because we have a clear view of who we are and what friends support us and want to be with us and what friends we want to be with. Golden Nugget number three, deciding when to confront a friend a friendship breakup. If you're unsure about what's going on or the status of your friendship, then you need to confront them after a lot of careful thought. Don't just go out and confront confront confront like maybe you did in high school. Midlife is a time about thinking through things before you do them. Aaron says that communication is key It's important to express to your friend that you're feeling that something isn't right. Don't make up narratives in your head and assume what your friend is thinking. Aaron explains the concept of rupture and repair, which is working through the conflict to get to the other side, and it actually strengthens the bond with your friend and if it does, it means the friendship probably really wasn't there or it's not working anymore. The more you and your friend understand each other, the better your friendship will be. Golden Nugget number four why ghosting is scary for the Ghoster and the ghost did. If there's one thing that Aaron definitely doesn't recommend. It's ghosting. We've all been there. She says that ghosting can have negative effects on your ex friend and yourself. The act of ghosting doesn't provide any closure for both people involved. When someone is ghosted. They're left wondering what the fuck happened and Did I do something wrong? Aaron says to remember that if you get ghosted, that is probably not something you did. It's possible, but it's probably an issue with the other person who goes to do Golden Nugget number five, Instagram friends versus in person friends. Aaron explains it Instagram friends can have a role in your life, but it's unlikely that they're going to become close in person friends, in equal value. Sometimes things can be unclear when you have Instagram friendships because you might think you know someone or the intention of something or what the purpose of the friendship is. But you never really meet them in person or have that shared experience. It doesn't mean Instagram and social media platform friends are not beneficial. They really are. And they help create connections with people and it can help you relate to people and make you feel like you're not alone in certain situations. I know that I've felt that with Instagram, and my flexible neurotic community and platform Golden Nugget number six. The benefits of friends for couples. Nobody can be everything to you. Erin says that having friends that when you're in a relationship can take the pressure off your partner. It's good to have some sort of separation so your friends can fulfill the other parts of your life that your partner is not. You don't want to be overly dependent on your partner and friends serve a lot of those functions. The gold is dripping off these nuggets, grab it, use it, there are three things you can do. Well there's a lot of things you can do but for me today, first is fucking subscribe to the podcast. I need you guys. Second, share it with some friends that is one of the best parts of this whole podcast. Midlife. REMAX is when friends are sharing it with friends who are sharing with friends. And that's how I've built up such a great following in such a short period of time because midlife shit is relatable and a lot of us are in it and feeling it. I would love for you. Thirdly, to write an apple review. writing reviews is fucking annoying. It's an extra step. But guess what? It really helps the podcast grow. You think your little review won't matter but it does. If you want to show and everyone said my clap doesn't matter. Then there will be no clapping. Every single person matters. DM me you know I always respond. And of course follow my instagram at the flexible neurotic on Instagram da love you guys