Episode 18 transcript

00:00

Hi good peeps. This is the next episode of the flexible neurotic podcast. I'm Dr. Sarah Milken, the flexible neurotic. Today I have an awesome guest. He's the third male. On this podcast. We had Jason diamond, the plastic surgeon, and Kevin Nealon, the actor and comedian. This guest is a rabbi, a prolific author, husband, father of two. His name is Rabbi Steve leader. He's the head Rabbi of one of the largest synagogues in Los Angeles with over 2700 congregants. He's a regular contributor and guest on the Today Show. Newsweek has twice named him one of the most 10 influential rabbis in America, his list of accomplishments can go on for days. I know him as the family rabbi who explained to my then six year old who's now 16, that the concept of God and spirituality and how important they were and perhaps where goldfish go when they die. Remember that? When my kids went to the preschool of Rabbi leaders temple, I would always pull him aside and ask him how to answer my kids questions, because boy, were they hard. I'm so excited to see you, Rabbi, Steve leader.

01:23

Thank you. I'm happy to be with you. It's great to be Oh my god, it's so good. gratulations on what you're doing. It's great.

01:31

Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations on your how many books have you written at this point?

01:36

Four. And I literally last week signed the contract start number five.

01:41

Where do you get the energy from?

01:44

That's a good question. I will tell you the truth of it is, it's really fun to write a book proposal and sell it really fun to promote a book. But honestly, Sarah, there is not one single fun thing about writing a

02:01

book. Yeah, I can imagine

02:04

it's really, really difficult. And it does not get easier. Your fifth is not easier than your fourth, your fourth is not easier than your third. But that being said, I grew up in a working class family, Neither of my parents went to college, they were 17 and 18. When they got married, they had five children before they were 30. And, you know, for me, books, to me were so elevated and sacred and the way out. And I grew up with this sort of point of view that writing a book, if I could ever ever write a book, it would be the most miraculous and wonderful thing. There is no feeling like opening up that box when it arrives from the publisher. with, you know, the first print of your book.

02:55

Totally,

02:56

it's a great feeling. And, and also, look, this book is obviously, you know, it's called the beauty of what remains, and it's about the things that death comes to teach us about life. And I think for those of us who are able to write books, it's one of the most beautiful things that you can leave behind when you're gone.

03:17

I agree with you. I mean, for me, the only things I can equate with it are finishing my dissertation for my PhD that's actually producing this podcast, and let's see, I'm on like, the 17th or 18th episode or something. And every time you do it, it's like you give birth to something else.

03:34

Yes. And if you feel you have something to say, and in the case of this book, I really had something I felt needed to be said, I can't wait to get into that. But it's not easy to answer your question.

03:44

Yeah, it's an amazing accomplishment and your books have such a far reach. It's not just about being Jewish or what your religion is. It's more about, you know, universal themes of how we can find more meaning in our lives. Well, I want to let you know that we have a metaphorical golden shovel on this podcast, where we dig through all layers of stuff in the second half of life. Okay, now you know about the metaphorical shovel the Golden One. So I want to take out our golden shovel, and lay out my three main goals. For this episode, we're going to talk about your new book, The beauty of what remains. And I want to discover and talk about your realizations that you made while writing the book by asking you about how three decades of being a rabbi and helping 1000s of Families Grieve with different types of grief that you personally experienced with your dad and his 10 year dementia journey. The second goal is to explore what you describe as your geeky, which I can relate because I'm such a nerd your geeky quality of asking many people what they would do over again in their lives to make them more meaningful. It's such a great question. And third, to learn how you in a sense self recreated from I'm Steve leader, the rabbi to Steve leader, the sun. Yes. And I know you go into that deeply in your book. And I think that all of these topics help us to better understand the second half of life as we face, our own aging, the advanced aging of our parents towards the ends of their lives and taking the lessons from your book and from your life to make our lives more meaningful.

05:25

All right, let's dig.

05:26

Let's do it. So what was your intention in writing the book,

05:30

the book is actually a form of an apology. What I mean by that is, before I wrote this book, I had spent 30 years helping literally 1000s of people through death, dying, grief, loss, mourning, and many other kinds of losses. You know, there are many kinds of deaths, there's the death of a marriage, there's the death of a reputation, there's a death of a business, a double mastectomy is a kind of death. I

05:57

love that you talk about all these different kinds of death, because we immediately think of a death of a person. But you're right, there are so many types of deaths. And even with COVID, this last year, we had the death of, I mean, so many different parts of ourselves in our lives. I mean, there were silver linings. For some of us, there's a lot of loss, the

06:18

greatest loss was, which I think is going to have an echo effect for the rest of our lives in COVID was the loss of our sense of the invulnerability. Yes, we now realize how vulnerable we are not just as individuals, but as a species. Yes. And that shakes you up by the shoulders pretty, pretty aggressively. So in any case, I'd spent 30 years helping people through this, and I thought I was doing a pretty good job, I would have given myself you know, maybe an A minus,

06:47

I think a lot of people that, yeah.

06:51

Pull the ball.

06:52

Yeah. And then

06:55

I decided on the 30th anniversary of my robinett on colon nidrei, which many of your listeners know many do not, is the holiest evening of the Jewish calendar. And that holy day, which begins the Yom Kippur War, that is the Jewish Day of the Dead. People don't realize this, but the whole service is constructed to mimic our deaths to force us to contemplate our deaths, so that we get more serious about our lives, which is really what death does for all of us. It's the great teacher. Yeah, so for example, traditional Jews were white on colony dry because you're buried in a white burial shroud. We fast because the dead neither eat nor drink. The service begins by removing our three Torah scrolls, our sacred scrolls, scrolls from the ark where they're contained, and they're held. While this long prayer is chanted, those three scrolls represent metaphorically the three judges in the heavenly tribunal with which legend has before we will stand to take make an accounting of our lives after we die. Now, here's the really deep part of this. So there you are metaphorically, standing before these three judges, confessing your sins, staring into now empty bark, because they've been removed the word for Ark where we keep the tourists and the word for coffin in Hebrew is the same word. So we're standing before the courts staring into our empty casket. And I decided, therefore, to give a sermon that night about the 10 things death had come to teach me about life after 30 years of being on the inside of it. And you thought you knew it. All right. I thought I knew it all. And by the way, the most requested sermon I've ever written in my 30 year career, it flew around the world. Everybody was

08:44

asking for copies. I remember that.

08:46

Yeah. Okay. And then Sarah, one year later, to the day, I buried my father after a 10 year journey through Alzheimer's the morning only Dre. I was in Minnesota burying my father. And I realized through that experience, that everything I had said in that sermon and everything I had done over those 30 years to help people through was, as I say, in the prologue, just one degree shy of the deepest truth. I love that a little bit wrong. And you know, there's this old Yiddish expression a half truth is a whole lie. You don't get it 100% right. It's wrong. And I wrote the book to set the record straight. I wrote the book to say look, this is what Steve leader the rabbi understood about death. But this is what Steve leader the son learned about death and they are not the same thing.

09:49

So would you say that was slightly would you mark that as kind of like your cell free creation moment of Route a Steve leader, the rabbi to see leader the sun like could you mark that

10:00

In terms of loss and grief and death, yes, there were other demarcations, which I think we all have to differentiate from our parents throughout our lives. That's the cognitive dissonance of having a parent. We love them. We hate them. We love them. We hate them. We love them. We hate them. Especially

10:16

when you have middle schoolers like I do right now, of course, in the heat of the moment.

10:21

They feel the same way about you, by the way. So

10:24

I know I love you, I hate you get away from me. Wait, where are you going?

10:28

Yes, exactly. So

10:28

that that cognitive dissonance? Yeah, it's just our entire lives. And we have to find a way to make peace with it. I remember when my son was two years old. My dad, if you read the I know, you read the book. Yeah, if I read it deeply,

10:41

are

10:42

you very tough, harsh guy, there's nothing easy about him. I remember, we were at the park in Palm Springs visiting them. And our little boy Aaron was about to and we're at the playground with my dad. And Aaron was being a two year old. And my father looked at me said, He's not listening to you, you need to grab him. And I turned to my dad. And I said, Dad, I am not raising him to fear me. Because I was raised to fear my fight. There were several demarcation points. But this one was the most profound in my life. And I learned the most from it. So the book was written as a way to sort of say, look, this is what I thought before. And this is what I know now. And I hope that that's helpful to everyone who's experiencing any kind of loss, and more particularly the death of a loved one. Now we can kind of go through what

11:32

the May I know for sure, we're going to go through all of those. So you have in your book, you say that there are two goals to it. You say the part of the book, one goal, the book is to be a field guide for those who are in death and grief. Yes. And the second one was to teach the lessons from the death of your father to help us make more meaning in our lives, especially the second half of our lives.

11:59

That's right. That's right. That's what makes the book I think, actually, I know, because I'm reading the reviews. That's why it's different than any other book on grief that's out there. Because there's this golden thread of the personal journey connected with the professional, who who can write a field guide about, here's what you do, when you do it, how you do it, why you do it. Here's what not to do. Here's what not to say, here's how to show up. Here's how not to show up, woven together with the love and loss and conflict of a complicated and difficult father and his son.

12:35

It's a beautiful tapestry, like you say a personal story, winding and weaving into real actionable stuff and items of things that we can do to get through grief. But as you say, we're going to talk about this in a second that grief is not as linear as you thought it was. In terms of the title of your book. I mean, obviously, I can guess what it means because I read the book, but we you tell us what it means? Well, it means a few different things. It's the beauty of what remains, I just want to remind people yeah, the

13:11

book is called the beauty of what remains how our greatest fear becomes our greatest gift. There are a few different ideas that work in the title. The first is I often say to people, if you have to go through hell don't come out empty handed.

13:25

Totally,

13:26

I don't I would say that about this pandemic, right? Do not come out empty handed do not revert to your default settings prior to the pandemic. Don't let go of what you've learned don't let go of the upside of this terrible downside.

13:41

There are silver linings to this, we talk about it all the time,

13:45

there are many and the challenge will be no to hold on to these lessons. I've learned many things through this pandemic, not the least of which is that a busy life and a meaningful life are not the same thing. zactly and, you know, despite what we're all taught, it's not the same thing. I mean, I've learned we've all learned a lot and we can get into that too. But the beauty of what remains is, you know, how do you make sure you don't come out of hell empty handed? How do you hold on to it? Secondly, for all of us, who have complicated relationships with our loved ones, and that is all of us, all of us. Right? How in life and in death, do you hold on to the beauty of what remains while making peace with what was not beautiful. And lastly, theologians have this concept a theological concept in Latin called via negati onus which means by way of the negative, which is a fancy way of saying that for a theist theologian, that one of the ways you can understand what God is is by understanding what God is not. Now in other words you can create by removing the best way to understand this is to think of the most beautiful sculpture and the most beautiful marble sculpture you've ever seen in me in your life and think about how that sculpture began, right? It began as a solid block of marble, and the sculptor create that beauty was always hiding there within it was always there. But it took a talented, skilled sculptor, to remove things to reveal that beauty. The beauty was created by removing, not by adding. I think that one of the things I know that one of the things my father's death came to teach me and one of the things death comes to teach all of us is how in that stripping away, it can leave behind for all of us a more beautiful life. In many ways, Sarah, as paradoxical as the sounds, we are more whole when broke. Mm hmm. That's the second half of life, by the way.

15:49

Yes, no, for sure. And I think it relates back to what we were talking about a second ago with the pandemic and the silver linings because a lot of people kept saying, well, COVID, cause this and COVID caused that and done another. But for me, I sort of saw it. And I know other people did, too, like the spotlight came down. And it really did shine the light on things that were already happening within us shortcomings, flaws, things that we could do better. COVID didn't cause those things.

16:19

That's right. That's true of death. Also, you know, this, Heinrich, kind of the German poet had this joke about the Jews. He said, The Jews are like everyone else, just more. So.

16:28

Just an extra,

16:29

right, right. Right now that works for almost any ethnicity, by the way. Yeah. But this is also true, what you're saying is quite profound. As it relates to death. One of the insights in the book that I explore pretty fully is that people face death exactly the way they face life. People die the way they live. And I'm not saying there are exceptions, people do get hit by a car or whatever. There are sudden deaths. But generally speaking, people face death. families face death, individuals face death, exactly the way they face life just more so. Right? It's an accelerator. It's an intensifier, or in your view, your metaphor, it's a it's a spotlight. It's a brighter light, a warm, loving, beautiful, supportive family and life will be a warm, loving, beautiful supportive family in depth. A dysfunctional bickering, nasty family and life will be a dysfunctional bickering, nasty family in debt. And so the fact that people face death, the way they face life is sometimes beautiful, and sometimes terrible. But it's always true. Always.

17:36

And you do say somewhere in your book about how there are some people who come to you and say, I want to resolve everything with my father before he dies? And you're like, wait, that's not really possible. Right? Can you talk about that for a second?

17:49

Yes, this This happens all the time. I'll get a call Steve. You know, my, I've never had a good relationship with my mother. She was always cold and withholding and narcissistic. But now she's been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She's got three to six months, and I'm flying back to Ohio to be with her. And, you know, I'm really looking forward to a reconciliation. And I say to the person, I hope you're right, but I want to prepare you for what is more likely, what is more likely, is that you're going to be disappointed, again, by your mother, because in my experience, dying does not give anyone a new personality.

18:32

Such a good point. And it said it I actually think it relieves some anxiety and expectation from people.

18:39

Well, now let's get out your golden shovel. Okay, let's like go to the deepest level of

18:43

Yeah.

18:44

Now what I'm about to say is rare, but helpful to people who are in this circumstance, there are people who have had to cut a family member or friend out of their lives because of their toxicity. You know, my mother, for example, didn't speak to her father for 30 years. Wow. Because he was abusive. And so people come to me and say, Steve, I haven't talked to my mother in four years. I text her when I text her once a year on her birthday. Every time I engage with her, I end up feeling horrible about myself. But now she's dying. And I'm worried I'm going to feel guilty when she dies, that I didn't try. To which I reply. Let me tell you a very tough, dark truth that you should not be ashamed of. When your mother dies, you are not going to feel guilty. You are going to feel relieved. And the person looks at me with these eyes as if to say, oh my god. How does he know? Doesn't that make me an awful person? No, it does. It makes you a real person. And, and it's again, the deepest, foundational understanding of this truth, that death is life's mirror. And it's liberating. It's not a guilt ridden process.

20:18

And why is that? Why can you not feel guilty about it?

20:22

Well, because it's the truth, right? It's the truth that just because someone's dying, doesn't mean, they deserve to hurt you again, that you have to lead with your chin one more time to be hurt and disappointed. You don't know, I want to be clear. These are very rare circumstances. But at its at its most extreme, it's an important insight. Because it relieves people with terrible guilt. The truth is when someone is really toxic in your life, when they die, it's a relief. Now, you're always heartbroken for what you wish could have been for the mother you wish you could have had. But the truth is, you didn't have that mother.

21:10

Yeah, I think that there. I mean, there's so many different versions of what could happen. I mean, I remember my dad didn't talk to my grandfather, probably for six or seven years. I was probably a teenager around then. And my brother and I were so upset about it and frustrated, but we maintained our relationship with our grandparents, they lived close to us. But then, when my grandfather was diagnosed with esophageal cancer, I think my dad sort of like put his big boy pants on is like, okay, like, I'm gonna go to him. And it's, our relationship has never been the way I wanted it to be. But it's on me because he's older, and he's never going to change. And I think that my dad did feel better about the way things ended. But he didn't like you said it didn't 100% correct their relationship. He just felt better about it.

22:00

Yeah, I mean, look, at the end of the day, you have to live with your own behavior. Yeah. But there are people more than a handful for whom reengaging is not the higher ground.

22:11

Right. He also had my mom who's a little bit of a lighter spirit kind of micromanaging from this side. So he had the extra help on his side, I think,

22:21

yeah, it helps. But imagine, for example, a father who was a terrible alcoholic, or a father who

22:27

sexually abused a totally different,

22:29

you don't have to lead with your chin in those circumstances, because someone is dying. And again, I want to say this isn't a tiny percentage of cases, but it's painful and important insight. No, I

22:38

think I think it's it is important. And I want to get to one of the first lessons in your book is how you learned how the stages of grief weren't as linear as you had sort of preached and practiced. Can you tell us about that? And how it changed you as a person and how you help others?

22:59

Yeah, so I'm 60 years old, and my generation and yours? Yes, we're raised under the umbrella of the teachings of Elisabeth Kubler Ross, who divided death and dying into five stages, and who divided grief into five stages, which implies it Now look, she was sophisticated, and she does it is more nuanced than than what the title implies. But the problem is, the only thing people remember is the title that there are five stages, right? Right. And stages implies that grief is a linear process. If

23:37

there's an order,

23:38

first you feel a then B, then C, then D, then E, and then you're done. Right. And I say in the book, that anyone who thinks that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, does not understand grief, because grief, at least in my experience, and we are only experts in our own grief, in my experience, grief was a non was is and always will be a nonlinear process. So the metaphor that I prefer to stages is that grief is is like waves, they come very large and very close together. At first. They do become further apart. And you can have beautiful calm seas for a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade, even sir. And then your back is turned and a massive rogue wave can rise up of grief and just take you down. And to extend the metaphor. This is one of the things where Rabbi Steve leader became Steve leader, the son and Steve leader, the human being right to extend the metaphor before my father died. Rabbi Steve wieder when faced with a wave, any kind of wave a wave of any kind of challenge a wave of 15 funerals in 17 days a wave of anxiety At

25:00

a wave of writing a book,

25:02

or even writing a book, a wave of the high holy days, ever Anyway, my default setting was, I'm going to plant my feet, stick my chest out forward, and I'm going to stand my ground and take this way, because I am more powerful than that way,

25:16

I'm going to kick some ass,

25:18

I'm going to impose my will, on the ocean, okay, that my father died. And I realized, and this has helped me with my life, that the better way to go, when you have a wave coming at you to lie down, let it wash over you. And just float with it until you can stand up again. And it also helps to reach out a hand to see if there's somebody close by, who can help lift you from your suffering. That's grief, you know, is

25:50

that a surrender at some, in some ways?

25:53

It's a it's, it's, it's making peace. It's it's making peace with the loss. It's, it is understanding that you have to heal it rather than fight it. And, you know, I think that that more than anything, I'll give you a real concrete example. Okay? If I was walking you into the chapel to do a funeral for your family, before my father died, I would look you in the eye and say, Sarah, the most helpful and honest thing I can tell you right now, is it won't always hurt so much. That's what I used to say. Then my father died. Now I will look you in the eye. And I'll say, Sarah, the most honest and helpful thing I can say to you right now, is that it won't always hurt so often.

26:48

That was a really important takeaway from your book.

26:52

Because the first is not true. You know, when I miss my dad, like I did yesterday, it hurts like the like the day we buried him.

27:02

And you can't, you can't foresee it coming. It could just be something that reminds you of him.

27:08

It's a rogue wave. It's a rogue wave. And when that happens, I float with it. Now, there are things you can do to create what in what in a therapeutic context would be called a holding environment of vessel. There are rituals. For example, I said cottage three times a day for my father, the Jewish martyrs per three times a day for the first 11 months. And it gave me a container for those feelings when when they were overflowing. Right? Well,

27:35

I think there's Yeah, there are so many ways. I mean, you could have a therapist, a life coach or journaling, meditation, daily ritual, all of those things are important. As long as you realize you don't judge yourself for it, I think is what you're saying.

27:50

Yes, loving, put it simply okay. There is no wrong way to grieve. There is no wrong way to grieve. Now, look, if you can't get out of bed for two months, and you've lost 15 pounds and you're not sleeping, we're gonna have a different conversation. Okay. But generally speaking, there is no wrong way to grieve, there is no wrong way to feel. And the only expert in your grief is you.

28:17

Do you think there's a difference in the types of grief people have when the deaths are unexpected? Or for a child? Like how do you manage those differently than the ones you would like your father you came to expect? But if you have, you know, a spouse that dies unexpectedly or a kid who dies unexpectedly, I'm sure you get those questions all the time of why me why ham? Why is this happening? Well, those

28:44

are two different lists. Look at both of those. They're right. Okay. The first is I have a theory, which I cannot prove. But this is my theory. And I'm going to kind of do it numerically, even though it's impossible to apply numbers to feelings, okay? Let's say that Sarah for your you're going to grieve on a scale of one to 10 you're going to grieve a 10 for your father. Okay. And you're going to grieve that 10 whether he has Alzheimer's for 10 years, or he gets hit by a car. The difference is, if he has Alzheimer's for 10 years, you're going to grieve maybe seven of that 10 while he's alive. If he gets hit by a car, you're going to grieve 10 of that 10 after he dies, I don't think the amount changes. I think that the timeframe changes you either pre grieve, or you grieve all of it afterwards. In my Father's case, you know, people have Alzheimer's died twice. They died twice.

29:46

I love that when you say that in the book because my grandmother suffered from Alzheimer's and I could totally relate to what you said. So why don't you tell us

29:54

well, my father died first when he his brain was No longer the brain of the Man who knew me and whom I knew. He didn't know who I was. He didn't know who he was. He didn't know where he was. He was a different person. So my father was gone. body was there, and his gestures were occasionally him. But my father was gone. So the disease sort of weaned me off of my father. While he was alive,

30:25

you had time.

30:27

Yeah, but and it sucks. So the wait, look, the bottom line is whether it's a 10 year journey and someone you love dies, or they get hit by a car, it all sucks. And it's all painful. And it's all a 10. It's just a question of how it gets dosed out to you by life right now. That's that now to your why question. Right. And I think this is maybe the most significant thing we could talk about to help people in a really powerful way. Part of the work I do with people who are suffering a loss or a tragedy, is to move them off of that question, why? Because why is a cul de sac and you go around and around and around and around? Because there is no why there is no answer that any human is capable of discerning, you know, people all the time. This is a compliment. But people say to me all the time, Steve, you've written the next why bad things happen to good people, which was Harold Kushner's book that came? No, the problem is, that's not the book he wrote. That's not the title of the book. Harold Kushner wrote a book called when bad things happen to good people. Nobody can write the book why bad things happen to good people. That's the book everyone wishes he had written. That's the book everyone wishes

31:45

we're all looking for.

31:47

But it's not. And that's what people call the book. But that's not the book. So because there is no why. And making peace with the fact that there is no y. Moving, I try very hard to move people I would say to Sarah, there is no y that we can discern we are only human. We have to try to move from Why? To what and how what, given that this has happened, am I going to do with my life? How am I going to live? How am I going to proceed in the world now?

32:21

Well, it sort of seems to me like you're pulling it from an exterior situation to a personal agency, interior situation of the person has passed away or the tragedy has happened. That's done. But now what can I do about it to make myself feel better or to be of service or to make that person's spirit live on in some capacity?

32:45

Yeah, exactly. dusty offski said his greatest fear was that his life would not be worthy of his suffering. Wow.

32:54

Wow.

32:56

Think about I mean, that's a powerful, powerful way to live.

33:02

How do you get people to like, what's that next step? You say to them, okay, but we can't think about the why. But then what's that next step?

33:13

How can you live a life worthy of this pain? How do you not come out of this hell empty handed?

33:22

Is that why people sometimes sort of create foundations or create you know, those types of things?

33:30

Because, look, this is Viktor Frankl in, you know, Man's Search for Meaning This is his whole thesis is that suffering ceases to become suffering. If it has purpose, then it becomes something else. My father died, I wrote this book.

33:43

Right?

33:44

Right. So it's an invitation to change your life. And this is why as creepy as it might sound, I'm so fascinated by the power of death, because in my opinion, it is the great teacher, the great teacher of how to live our lives. Imagine if we lead deathless lives. Imagine that life would have absolutely no meaning. No one would have children. Noah didn't have any ambition. No one would want to change anything. If we wouldn't even be human if we were deathless,

34:14

because it will, it's also there's no shades of gray, there's no nuance, there's no happy versus unhappy. Everything is a comparison.

34:23

Yeah, so I, it is death. I mean, Kafka said, the meaning of life is that it ends right. It's true. Wallace Stevens and poet Wallace Stevens, that the beauty of a flower is that it fades. This is why nobody is moved by plastic flowers. Nobody cares. You know why? Because they have no death. They have no life. They're meaningless. And this is true of us. This is true of us so we can use the fact of death itself, the death of our loved ones, our own as we contemplate in the second half of our lives. Our own deaths, our own finitude to lead more beautiful and more meaningful lives, worthy

35:07

lives from what I read from your book, I don't think you necessarily have to have had a death in your life, to be able to start doing these things. And I think that was one of the important things for me in this book is, I mean, obviously, my parents are older, and it's something that I will have to face. And you know, all four of my, you know, I witnessed all four of my grandparents dying within a very short period of time. And I was there for three of them, actually, at the actual moments of their death, which was test, which was very moving. And when I look back on it, I'm like, how was I so fortunate to be able to be a part of three of those four deaths, but there are things that we can learn from death, even if we're not facing it ourselves.

35:51

For sure. I think the pandemic is a good example. Exactly. Right. I

35:56

love that.

35:57

We've learned about our vulnerability, we've learned that our destiny is in each other's hands, we've learned that a little is a lot, right? We've learned to be grateful for the simplest of things. We've learned how much suffering there is it that we can actually help alleviate. I think the most important thing we've learned is that no matter how many times what, let me just back up and ask you a question just to before I tell you, yeah, we just have you like, like me, found yourself saying, I love you so much. So effortlessly during this pandemic, yeah, it's different than before.

36:39

Of course, I'm like, my daughter walks out the room. I'm like, love you. She's like, what? Like, it's like, two in the afternoon.

36:46

I'm telling my friends I have you know, it's just effortless now. And I also

36:51

find that my, that my kids are doing it like, so we're on the sofa. And my daughter who's 14, who's normally a normal 14 year old who's like, Get away from me. She's like, snuggled up against me. Yeah. And she's like, holding my hand. We're and I'm like, What's happening here?

37:08

Well, I think what it's taught us what this pandemic and its death, and its suffering has taught us, which you would think we would know, but I always say people stand knee deep in a river and drought and die of thirst. I mean, that's just the way it is, is that no matter how many times we say, I love you, and no matter how many times we hold, and are held by the people we love, it's never enough.

37:33

And the other thing you say is that you never know when it's your last time. I mean, you don't want to live your life like wait, that's the last I love you, my husband can't go to work, or my wife can't go to work. You don't want to live like that. But at the same time, you do say, as like sort of the second takeaway of the book is you don't know when it's that last time,

37:51

I didn't know my last conversation with my father was my last conversation with my father, because he could speak one day and the next day

37:58

that ended does that change your interactions with like your wife, Betsy, like, do you ever go to sleep in an argument? Or like, do you actually plan your days differently based on that takeaway?

38:12

Well, you know, we we've been married 35 years. And we worked that out. A long time ago, we fell in I mean, I fell in love with her the minute she walked in the room, we got engaged on our second date. Wow, wow. And we've had all the problems and struggles any marriage would have. But we've worked that part through many years ago, or we wouldn't still be married. You know, we're really we're really good friends. And, and, you know, I hold her hand every night when I fall asleep. That that part we've

38:41

thought has changed your daily interactions with your family members or your kids. It's like you think about it?

38:49

Well, I do, I think much more about creating memories for my own kids. Now, based on what I remember from my father, you know, from the book, my father had a lot of anxiety around money and had a real fear of poverty. And I was raised to with a fear of poverty, which I have to this day, but my father's death has changed my relationship with money a little bit. I'm spending money on things that I would not have spent them on while he was alive, because I realized now, you know, I'm 60. And how many more trips? Could I really take with my kids before I'm too old to go to these crazy places,

39:24

right? It's though it's those experiences that you remember.

39:28

It's the only Yeah, and then I'll tell you. The other thing, which I think is important when it comes to how death can inform life is to think about headstones in cemeteries. I spend a lot of time in cemeteries. And I'm always amazed that despite how different we all are, and we all lead unique lives. There's an incredible uniformity to inscriptions on headstones in cemeteries, they almost all say the same thing. Because when you have to distill person's life down to 15 characters per line and four lines on the headstone. That is a very instructive, you know, engagement in a centralism. Okay, you have to really figure out who was this person and what mattered. And you know what they almost all say, loving wife, mother, you know, friend, loving, loving grandmother, you know, loving husband, father, grandfather fret right? At the end of it all. It really it's no, it's not your GPA. It's not your PhD, it's not your zip code. It's not your kids GPA. It's not your resume, none of it. Death has this way via negati onus by stripping away, it has this way of helping us see what really matters, and therefore what does right but can we do it right now, before we get there? That's the hard part is the hard part. That's right. And that's why I wrote this book to help people focus on on these lessons that death comes to teach us before death teaches it to them. Right? Because at the end of it all, it comes down to a tiny handful of relationships. And do any of us really have more than than a tiny handful of people who matter? No,

41:28

no, we don't. Especially after the pandemic. I think that really sort of accelerated the Okay, at the end of the shift show. Who's left? Who's the one reaching out to me? Who am I reaching out to? Who are the sort of the morsels of importance

41:45

know what I'm not going forward? I'm not having breakfast, lunch and dinner every day with a bunch of people. I don't like I'm not doing that anymore, right? I'm no. And I'm not going to get on the freeway for 4550 minutes an hour to sit in a meeting with five people I could zoom with. And you know what i upstairs, I have a closet full of really expensive suits and ties and belts and shoes. I'm donating them. You're

42:07

wearing a hoodie right now.

42:09

Nobody cares. Nobody cares. So can we hold on to what this stripping away has revealed? You know, in in terms of its beauty, because you're right, it's easy to forget, it's easy to default. You know, there's a chapter in the book called nobody wants your crap.

42:30

Right? And right, so good.

42:33

Yeah, yeah. Because I, that title came from my friend, Deborah, who went back to Florida to bury her mother. And she came back and I was working on the book. I said, Well, what did you learn? She said, you know what I learned Steve, nobody wants your crap, all that stuff. You worked hard to make money, the collections, the paperweights, the fountain pens, the art of this, nobody want your kids don't want it, your grandchildren don't want it, the goodwill won't take most of it. Nobody wants your crap,

43:01

I get an Amazon landfill.

43:03

Right? And your life, amassing a bunch of crap. Don't do it. But sometimes it takes death to teach us these lessons. And hopefully, this book is a way of learning these lessons. Without having to necessarily go through the pain of losing someone you deeply I think

43:21

you have to make like a deck of everyday reminder cards so that people actually remind themselves each day because I find myself reading books like yours and going, Oh my god, I want to do these five things. And then you kind of get back into your daily life and you're like not doing them. I'll

43:37

give you a trick. So this has to do with the next book. Okay, one of the things that most interviewers have hit on who are not Jews, or, you know, the Gentiles who have interviewed me is the ethical will,

43:49

right. That's next on my list. All right. Well, I love that.

43:54

Well, it's also it's an answer to your question.

43:57

Oh, you You, You took the words right out of my mouth.

44:02

A lot of Jews know about ethical wills. Jews have been writing ethical wills since the 11th century in Germany, France, and Italy. An ethical will is a companion document to your estate plan, but your estate plan, the cwis your stuff to the people you love, and ethical will is something you write a letter to your children, your grandchildren if you don't have children, to the people you love about your legacy and values and ethics that you want to bequeath to them now, and I wrote mine and put it so the next book is going to be an exploration of 15 questions I'm encouraging people to ask themselves and answer that will then help them create their own ethical will I love it because this is on my list with my husband and you know, Jeremy for this summer because obviously, you know, we have everything else set up, but we don't have this setup. Well, you should because it's an answer to your challenge of a month. It goes like how do I remember all these things in this book? Right, your ethical will and read it once a week. Just read it to yourself once a week. Now ours is actually bound with our state plants. Our kids can't even get to the money till then.

45:15

But I thought you read your ethical Well, it because I read it in your book. And I actually took a quote from it to talk to you about

45:23

I did I, my kids? Yes, I've read it to my kids, but it's also part of our estate plan. And if you write your ethical will, then you get to engage in an exercise about align. You're now you're now saying in your ethical will, these are my professed values? And if you read it weekly, you get to ask yourself, are they also my lived values are my lived values, in alignment with my professed values? Because that's, that, to me, is as close to a good life as a person that there is nothing that causes greater anxiety than when your professed values and your lived values are out of alignment. That's a terrible way to Yeah,

46:04

that's like cognitive dissonance on crack. I mean, it's,

46:10

it's a double lie.

46:11

Yeah, it really is. I, I like how the way you talk about the ethical will is that it also helps you refine and define that the Who is the most important rather than the what? That's it. And you do talk about how your kids kind of, I don't want to say laughed, but they were like, Oh, that's cool dad, but you know, at the end of the day, that it's an important document to them. I mean, they can kind of like snicker and whatever. But you know, at the end of the day, it means something. And I want to read a little short excerpt that I pulled. I mean, obviously, it's a long document. But it says, here we go. Have a healthy relationship with work, do your best data, but your work is not the same thing as your life. I often confuse the two and hope you will less so spend time in nature, it will remind you of God of true greatness, it will calm you, cause you pause, breathe, stand still listen, it will help you feel humble and small in profound and important ways. So when you're talking about alignment, when I read that, it says, Hi, I'm Steve leader, the rabbi and I used to be a workaholic. And now I'm doing better at that. And I want you to also,

47:27

yeah, it's still a real struggle. And you know, I know you're focusing on the second half of life. So I've turned 60. And I'm starting to think about the end of my career as a rabbi at least as a full time, right, you know, I running a mass. You know, it's 2700 families, and it's a lot. And to be honest, this is the first time I've really talked about this in any public way. I have a great deal of anxiety because I have used work to suppress my anxiety.

47:57

Totally. I mean, I can relate to that completely. Because that's how an empty nester mom feels. Yeah. And I that's part of the reason for this podcast you are creating this podcast is, Hey, I'm I was 45 years old last year, my kids are 16 and 14, what's next for me, I don't have them. And I didn't have a third good. So what now,

48:20

I can't obviously speak for women. But I have a mother, three older sisters, a wife and a daughter. I think that the combination of meta paws and an empty nest for women is similar to what I'm feeling now as I start to contemplate the end of my career because I have used brutally hard work to be honest, I mean, toward I've worked brutally hard. We've all watched it. I mean, built buildings and synagogues and schools. And a lot of it, honestly, first of all, I committed to the mission. But I also know that it's been a way to suppress my anxiety. And now that I'm starting to contemplate loosening my grip a little bit, it's really frightening. It is and, and I have a lot to learn in order to be able to transition in a way that I can enjoy the last 20 or 30 years of my life. What I was trying to say to my children was if you can get a hold of that earlier in your life, if you can avoid using work to suppress anxiety earlier in your life and lead a more balanced life earlier on. I think you'll have a better life.

49:36

I think it's so hard because we're all trained in this race to the end. You know, like even with my son, he's like signing up for his classes for 11th grade for the fall. And he has all these like honors and AP classes and I'm like, Jake, I didn't tell you to do this. This is like a clusterfuck like,

49:54

you're gonna have no but he watched you do it right.

49:57

And I'm like, no You have to cut some of these out. This is not what I signed you up for. And if it means you're going to a lesser college, I'm good with that. But I'm not going to watch you an entire 11th grade year, you know, being in a stress container.

50:13

So if you're a great mom,

50:15

I'm trying Well, it's for what you're saying it, I've already been down that road. And I want him to sort of figure out how to live less in a performance driven environment. And more from does this feel good for me, because so many people, as you know, being 16 me being 46 are unhappy with their situations in their lives.

50:37

I've been on that road since I was five years old.

50:40

I mean, you were like cleaning toilets and working in a scrap yard. And

50:45

yes, I've been on this road since I was five years old, and it makes getting off of that road. Very difficult. And my letter to my children, look, I'll tell you what I can compare this to my ethical will, in a sense, you know, in the part of the book when I talk about writing eulogies and I talked about how important it is to ask about a person's flaws, because I don't think you really honor a person by presenting him or her as a two dimensional being, you honor them by presenting them as a three dimensional being sensitively, obviously, with empathy, I, in my ethical will wanted to present myself to my children with my flaws, obviously, without going into detail, but with enough detail, so that they hopefully can learn from their father's mistakes. And because it's one thing to tell your kids, I want you to honor your blueprint, it doesn't matter to me where you go to college, etc, etc. But they're the example they're watching. Is, is an Uber high achieving parent. Totally. Right. And so you can talk all you want, but it's what it's what they see. And so the best I think I could do was to be honest with them. And say that I, I really did make work my life, you know, I had a, I'm just gonna be totally forthcoming. I had a very shocking moment. A few weeks ago, we were sitting at our table with a friend of ours, who's a single parent, her daughter's father died when her daughter was two. And she was talking about being a single parent. And this hurts me a lot to say. Betsy said, my wife said, I was a single parent. And I couldn't argue with her. I couldn't argue with her feeling that way. I mean, obviously, technically, she

52:45

wasn't that hard.

52:46

I made some literally games. And,

52:48

you know, we went on, ultimately responsible at the end of the day,

52:52

and alone. A lot, a lot. Every weekend. Every weekend. Wow. And many nights. So you know, this is part of the role stress of being a rabbi is you're up there preaching about the importance of family, and you leave your own family to go help another family through a tragedy. Great point. That's the game. Right? So and I and I salute. And so these are all these things that I'm trying to reckon with now as, as I mature, and my ethical will was my hopefully successful attempt at saying to my children, I didn't get everything, right. I didn't do everything, right. I don't want you to be me. I want you to be you.

53:33

And I guess what, no interesting way, though, is you know, like, as a rabbi, you're obviously doing good for the world and for your communities, you can sort of personally justify it as well, I'm not going out. And you know, signing an entertainment deal, I'm helping people's lives. And I'm sure you become sort of like addicted to that feeling of helping people and being of service. But then at the same time, you're sort of I don't want to say bailing on your family, but kind of bailing on your family to serve other people. It's sort of like how famous heard surgeons or doctors are saving people's lives, they kind of get that God syndrome hero thing going. And then

54:15

to me, it's more not so hero, like a surgeon. To me, it's more a sense of duty. Right?

54:22

That makes sense.

54:23

So many times I've looked at Betsy and said, I have to go. And she and she goes, I know. You know, it's it's more a sense of duty than ego because I tell you the truth. When my phone rings at 10 o'clock at night from the answering service,

54:39

I cringe, right? I don't

54:41

get excited about it.

54:43

I cringe but you're you're used to it and you're you're you're sort of predicting it's going to happen. You're kind of expecting that it's going to happen i'm sure to a certain point you want it to end.

54:54

I have always felt called to serve. And that's not always easy. That's the way I'm built. I been that way since I was a very young boy. You know, I remember my earliest memory of this is in fourth grade, how old are you in fourth grade like nine, maybe 10. So it was Miss Hollingsworth class in St. Louis Park, Minnesota and a quilt elementary school. And there were about 2530 kids in a class back then with one teacher, right? That's how it was for me. Yeah. And I remember there was one girl in our class, I won't use her name because she's a real person and could hear this podcast, I guess. Let's call her Debbie. And she was clearly different than the other kids. Now today, we have language for that she was on the spectrum. But but we didn't have words for that in 1968, or 1969. It was just weird, different. Makes sense. And I remember sitting in my desk fantasizing, I didn't do it. But I fantasized about going to miss Hollingsworth and saying, could I just spend a few minutes alone with Debbie because I think I could help her. I don't know where that came from. That's in my DNA. Maybe because I didn't get much of that as a kid. I wanted to give. I don't know. But that has been in me since since as far back as fourth grade that I can remember of of wanting to help people who were suffering. It's the empath of you, I

56:21

think because I, I have a very similar sense for myself and my children as well. My You know, my mom runs the largest nonprofit in the country for special needs kids is you know, so I grew up with that, which is different from you. So the we were sort of raised with that of, you know, before you laugh when someone falls, you ask them if they're okay, you know, where are some people's response to someone falling? It's like, Oh, my God, that's so funny. And I'm, like, completely terrorized for the person.

56:52

Yeah, I grew up with with with very little empathy. Very little, I grew up in a pretty harsh environment. And maybe that was it. And you grew up with a good example. And maybe that was it.

57:02

I know, it's interesting, because it makes you think about that nature versus nurture. Because we both came out similar, but we had such different upbringing.

57:12

And as you know, from watching your mother, I assume there's a heavy price

57:16

you pay. Yeah. But she also worked a lot, too. I mean, she was in Bonn, weekends and nights. But, you know, she had a huge career when I was growing up.

57:27

Yeah. And I'm sure it took a lot out of her

57:29

it did she loved every minute of it. And I don't know I you know, people always say, Well, did you choose not to work when your kids are growing up? Because your mom did? And I said, I don't know, because I never really thought about it in that specific of a way. But I'm sure that part of the reason why I did stay home was because my mom didn't. But then at the same time, so much of who I am, and my personality and my independence and my sort of like performance driven self is because of her. Yes. And so it's like going back to what you're saying. It's like this sort of like conundrum of things you want, but you don't want you know, it's this mixed bag. And that's what life is.

58:11

And all we can do. I'll tell you a very wise saying someone told me not long ago, I've given up all hope of having a better pass.

58:21

It's a good one. It's so good.

58:24

Might be my Kol nidrei sermon that's so profound, I've given up all hope of a better path. You know, who knows why we came out the way we came out, do what we do. What we do know is we can live consciously and mindfully today and tomorrow.

58:43

Yes, I agree. And I also think I mean, one other question I have for you on the ethical. Well, I interviewed a woman who's an author who talks about legacy letters that she had written has written for her children. And she kind of you know, her name is Dr. Kurtz. And she updates the letters frequently, like let's say she writes a new one every year. Do you ever add yours or change it?

59:08

Yes, I've written two completely different ethical wills. Okay, I wrote one when I was 40. And I wrote this last one at 60. Okay. And they're, they're very different, interesting. They're not different in terms of their deep love for my my family, and my hopes for them. But I've learned a lot in 20 years, and I've changed a lot in 20 years. And they're very different. So I do think I don't know about every year, but I do think it's worth just like an estate plan, which you have to revisit. You know, it's one thing like who gets the kids when they're two and five, and it's another thing, you know, who gets them, you know, who's who controls the money when they're 30 and 35. So, I think it should be revisited. But I don't know about every year right

59:55

but it's also this idea of maybe it doesn't have to be called an ethical well, but it's like, you know, Like her version was the legacy letter, like every year on your kid's birthday, you write something only because my fear is that if I wait to give my kids this ethical Well, when I pass away, or you know, when they're much older, they're not going to sort of get all of those golden nuggets, like you're saying about being a workaholic soon enough. So here I here I am saying to Jake, please don't take all those classes. But then he's gonna read my ethical Well, in however many years, so I'm trying to figure out a way to further now.

1:00:31

I think if you and Jeremy right, your ethical wills this summer, you should sit down with your kids and say we want to read something to you. We've written for both of you for when we're gone. We don't expect that to happen anytime soon. Because they're still children, and they know for sure, but we want to read these to you. And then here's where we're gonna put them. I wouldn't miss that opportunity.

1:00:50

Yeah, no, I think so. Especially after a year like this year, I was actually thinking about, like, what you were saying before is how are we going to remember all these things that we've learned? And we all say we're going to, like, I try to remember what I wore on a podcast two weeks ago, there's no chance I'm remembering that you know, so. I'm trying to think of right now trying to engage my children and perhaps just writing like a one pager that says like, the 10 things, they learned this pandemic year, just so that we haven't

1:01:20

actually you can go back to the temples website, I wrote a Shabbat message called 10 COVID commandments, okay. And it was meant to stick on your refrigerator. Okay. And it's exactly what you're talking about. And, and I am and it should be front and center. And the truth is, we will default to our previous settings to some degree. But we can also make some very important permanent changes, and we can go from suits to hoodies. Right, Steve, I plan on telling you other than funerals, weddings, and I don't know, services. I'm done with that. Yeah, you know what, what I learned is nobody cares.

1:02:02

I know, it was an interesting, my concern about playing a role. But we all had it. We all had, it wasn't just you.

1:02:11

And it's Kabuki what's wrong with us?

1:02:17

I don't know what's wrong with us. But I will say that one of the gratitude exercises that you mentioned in your book kind of piqued my interest. It's a little Doomsday. I will say that, but it piqued my interest for a minute, is when you talk about these marbles? Yes. Can you tell us about that? Tell us if you think it's Doomsday and what a less Doomsday version of it could be in our own lives.

1:02:41

I don't think it's I think it's Doomsday if you're young.

1:02:44

Okay.

1:02:45

I don't think it's Doomsday at 60. Okay, so the story, it's a pretty famous story, it's a story about a guy to make a long story short, he, he figured the average age of death, I you know, is let's say 80. And he was you know, 72. So he took a big jar, and he put a marble. He put a marble for each week left of his life, assuming he would lead a normal life and diet 80. And every week, he would take a marble out. And it was a kind of reminder not to waste the time he has doing things that aren't important and don't matter. And I think it's a very instructive way to speak. I will tell you a real world story that has to do with rabbis retiring. This happened, this happened to me to two years ago, I was in New York, I was having breakfast with my best my Rabbi best friend, guy named Peter Rubenstein, who used to run central synagogue in Manhattan. And Peter had decided to retire. And I said, How did you make the decision? He said, Steve, I was sitting with a really smart guy, Blanca temple, one of my closest friends. And he he took out a piece of paper because Peter asked him, Do you think it's time? My friend took out a piece of paper. He said, Peter, how many good years do you think you have left? And Peter said 20. So his friend was the businessman took out a piece of paper and he wrote down one year equals 5%. Every year of his life was 5% of what he had left. And that encouraged him to make the decision to retire. I don't think it's dark, I think is liberating. Okay, I think it's all burning. I think it's sobering. But I also think it's liberating. And it says to you don't wait to enjoy….

1:04:39

your life. You only live once. Well, and then and not forever. Yes, that is true.

1:04:45

And I actually find that living with some recognition of that finitude, it makes my I can only speak personally. It has made my life more precious. more meaningful, I'm starting to do things that if I wasn't cognizant of this reality, I probably just work till the day I

1:05:09

die. So you don't see it as Doomsday as sort of counting down to your death, you just use it as a tool to sort of put things in perspective of how much time good time do you have left? Right?

1:05:23

And, you know, go for the ride. Yeah, right. Go for the ride. There's a piece in the book, you know, that a guy read at his father's funeral. And it's about how we should slide into death, like with the tires, mourn and the death and, and running on fumes and saying, holy shit, what a ride. That's the way you want to go out. Right?

1:05:44

I know, it's such an interesting thing, because like, as you know, living in Los Angeles, and, you know, we're all, not all of us. But many of us are creating or have tried to create these bubbles of perfection and these linear paths. And we went to college here, and our kids are going to college there and all of these things. And then after this year of COVID, it's like, Does any of that shit matter? Very much. You know, like, there are kids who go to Harvard and live in their parents basements. And then there's kids who go to, you know, a much quote, lesser college who end up doing amazing things in their lives.

1:06:19

What matters is honoring your blueprint. Yeah, honoring and honoring your child's blueprint. That's what matters. Yeah, that's what, right, whatever that blueprint is, that's what matters. And by the way, let's not be too, too hard on this middle phase of life, there is a time when it's important to keep death at arm's length to deny data, because Because otherwise, you will get you would lack ambition. You know, so each stage of life has its own internal realm.

1:06:53

But yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because it is true. Like my kids, it's easy for me to say to my kids, Oh, you don't have to go to an Ivy League school. But then they see like, well, both my parents did, and my grandparents, like, you know, went to great schools. And so what am I going to be the only one who does it. So it's easy to say, when you've done it, you're right.

1:07:13

And also, it has to do with your kids blueprint. If you have a kid who has no business being in an Ivy League school, then you shouldn't, you know, put that kind of pressure on her that kind of guidance. It's really about honoring one of the things that I learned, we have a son who has learning differences. And I remember, he, when we had him tested in third grade, he scored in the top 1/10 of 1%, or the bottom 5%. He was never a 50% in anything. And you know, your PhD isn't educational psychology. So you understand this, right? And I remember talking to his therapist in frustration, you know, like, why can't he fill in the blank, do this or do that. And then I would keep being hard on him. And finally, we're

1:08:00

in a cul de sac, see?

1:08:02

Yeah. And my then the therapist looked at me, and he said, Steve, this is your kid. This is your son. This is who he is. honor Him. And that changed everything.

1:08:16

No, I love that. I mean, I know you know, my story of letting first letting my son switch schools, and everyone being like, Oh, my God, wait, how did you you and your husband met at that school that he's been for six years, you're a trustee at that school. And now you're letting him go down the street to the competitor School, which is totally different.

1:08:37

Cuz he's totally different. Yeah.

1:08:38

And my husband and I were like, We already went to school, like, we've already lived our fucking lives. You know what he means? Like, this is his blueprint, like you said, his life. It's not like he's asking to be homeschooled in a country that I've never heard of. Like, he's asking to go to a school down the street that has a little bit different way of doing stuff that he thinks is gonna make him happy. And if I say no to that, for my own legacy reasons, what am I saying to him? And I think a lot It was a really intro, I could do a whole podcast episode on this. But it was really interesting to see the people who were blown away, like, Oh, my God, sort of in judgment. And then there was another percentage of people who were like, wow, we're really, yeah, we wish we could allow ourselves to let go of our own shit and let our kids do it their way. And I'm not tooting my own horn. There's no good way of doing it.

1:09:37

We had the same thing. We took our kid out of the Center for early education and put him in park century. And there were people were like, You did what? And there were people like, Wow, good for you.

1:09:46

So interesting.

1:09:48

Here's the thing about school and kids. You know, actually, you've studied this much more than I have, but because people know about our son's journey they often come to me for about their kids. And one of the things I tell them is listen to me. School is the only time in a person's life when he or she is expected to be good at everything. Real Life is not like that. No one has ever said to me, Steve, you're such a great Rabbi, You You're such a good writer, you're so helpful. You've done so many amazing things. But your Mandarin Chinese is very weak. Do we need to? Do you need a tutor? Are you not applying yourself? My

1:10:28

God? Your phone away. So

1:10:33

school is the only time in life you're supposed to be good at everything.

1:10:37

I know. My son hates Spanish. He just hates it. He goes, Mom, I can walk into any other class and I just get it. It makes sense. He goes Spanish. It's like, I don't even know where I am or what's happening. And I said, Do you want a tutor? He goes, I have an 89. And I go, Well, I don't know. I'm just asking. And I'm like, Do I want him to have higher and higher than an 89? I don't even care. And if he doesn't care, I don't care.

1:11:04

Why? Because really successful people are great at one thing, oh delay, and then they have people

1:11:10

to help them with everything else. And I'm like, if I don't care about Spanish, and he doesn't care about Spanish, and then there's me where that was like the subject I did the best in. So I'm like, wait, I have a kid who is like amazing at math. And science hates Spanish. Yeah, totally different blueprint.

1:11:27

And so I think that, you know, life is long and life is short. It's both. But it's definitely too long. to torture yourself, or to torture the people you love.

1:11:39

Yes, I agree.

1:11:41

I dishonouring their blueprint.

1:11:46

I love that. I think I think we could do a whole episode on the blueprint situation because I think it has so many layers of meaning for our kids for ourselves for just creating meaning in our lives. And I have loved this conversation with you. I am so happy we did it. I know you're doing podcasts all day long in sideways and on TV shows. So I so appreciate you saying yes. But before I let you leave and hang out with Betsy. We have a little rapid fire fun shit about Steve. Okay, here we go. Okay, so what's next on the bucket list?

1:12:26

finished the little house. We're building a Joshua Tree so I can disappear there.

1:12:30

Okay, that's a good one. Okay, that your list might be long for this one. Anything that you have learned that's now on your bucket list after quarantine? Do you like I'm cursing to a rabbi? It's so sad. I've heard some of your jokes. I've heard them.

1:12:47

I'll tell you. Our son walked into nursery school his first day. And he looked around the room and he said I brought him he looked around the room he said Jesus Christ What?

1:12:58

He said I have no idea. Oh my god.

1:13:05

Asked me again. I

1:13:06

said what's on your bucket list after quarantine? Obviously suits,

1:13:10

uncomfortable clothes. breakfast lunch and dinner with people I don't care about is down like my husband getting on the 405 and the 10 to go to meetings. Yeah, and I'm kind of done with doordash Okay, good.

1:13:26

Because you want to eat homemade food or because doordash does it all wrong. We do we do eat homemade a lot but whenever we end up ordering it it's the same thing and I'm really sick. I know I even told my son I go if you're ordering Postmates during my call with Rabbi leader and the doorbell rings, like we had like a whole shit show before this episode. Okay, so secret pleasure. Like, I don't know. I like mini Twix bars. Who know my kids know they're hidden in my closet too. Which is embarrassing.

1:13:59

I really like lamonta cuz pizza huh hard when Betsy sends me to Whole Foods to go grocery shopping.

1:14:09

I love it. That's so good. Do you bring any home or you eating on your way? He did in my car? She doesn't know about it. That's like when I get yogurt on my way home and I want my kids to see that I got it and I didn't give it that to them. I like try to throw it away in a trash can like in the laundry room.

1:14:27

I pull over.

1:14:29

I love it. Okay, what about whoo things? Do you do any woowoo thing?

1:14:33

What is the woowoo thing?

1:14:34

Oh, come on. Steve stand on your head. Meditation crystals. Anything? Yeah. Whoa. Oh, um,

1:14:45

I have to say sadly not however. However, I have a flower garden I spend a lot of time on and that's not Whew.

1:14:53

That falls into that category. pretty sad. Wow. I have fake grass. I can't do that right now.

1:14:59

Yeah, you Could you just need a flowerpot?

1:15:02

What are your favorite flowers? Are there any that are easy? Like well make sure

1:15:09

they're all easy if you just fertilize and water problem real fertilizers amazing. I have I have, I'll tell you my favorites. When we landscaped our backyard, our landscaper was doing another job where he removed 2030 year old rose bushes. Varieties you just cannot find anymore. And and 17 of them have survived and they're in our backyard. Insane. Yeah, they're not going to live much longer because they have a they have a lifespan, you know, and they're dying off a few every year but they're pretty amazing.

1:15:44

You have ethical wills for them

1:15:48

know their money.

1:15:50

Okay, what about our favorite TV show or something you're watching now?

1:15:56

I just watched battle fish. You know, I like to fish. I'm a fly fisherman. is

1:16:01

to just fish.

1:16:02

Is that like a good? Okay, Jews who grew up in Minnesota? Yeah, that's what I was gonna

1:16:06

say because I just I don't know many Jews who fish here. Well, we don't hunt right? That's what I thought.

1:16:13

If you grew up in Minnesota and you don't fish I mean you're just no kind of fly fishing. Now. Yes, I mostly five. Yeah,

1:16:20

I did. I'm terrible.

1:16:23

It's a skill and it's all cat I catch and release and with a barbless hook so little very little damage to the fish.

1:16:29

Oh my god. I just finished watching this show. This eight part show on Netflix called battle fish, which is about a fleet of tuna Fisher tuna boats. And all the drama on a tuna boat. Oh, that's so interesting. There was a show we used to watch with my son, gold rush. Or it was something like that, where you're kind of like falling along into like a documentary style. Maybe we'll do one up. That sounds good. Actually, I never. I never can find TV shows that suit my kids needs like,

1:17:02

well, I like to fish. So I thought battle fish was

1:17:04

cool. Love that. Okay, now what was the last thing you ordered from Amazon?

1:17:09

Oh, this something called a bung bu n g wrench. Oh,

1:17:17

what is that?

1:17:19

What you may ask is a bummer. Our director of security at the temple spends a fair amount of time making sure that I'm Okay, got it. I get weird threats and all kinds of stuff. But that includes making sure we're safe at home. So we have you know cameras and lots of layers of defense systems and stuff. But it also he's been upgrading our earthquake supplies and he brought over 255 gallon drums specifically made to hold water for up to five years and keep it fresh with this stuff you squirt in it. And then you'll have water in case we have an earthquake and water pipes burst or whatever. So the the you open the screw top to this thing there to like round, maybe three inch holes with tops on them. And they have this special you need a special wrench to open it called a bone.

1:18:11

What did you have to like buy two and you duct tape one to each bottles? You don't.

1:18:16

I put one under the cover of one of the bots.

1:18:19

Oh my gosh, that is so

1:18:22

sick over it. So the last thing I bought Amazon.

1:18:27

He didn't come with the bomb rank, you actually had to order it.

1:18:31

I actually had to order my own bung wrench for 790

1:18:36

days, so I felt good. The question is though, do you know how to use it, Steve? Yes. Did he do a training session for you?

1:18:43

No, it's pretty.

1:18:44

Okay. Good. Good, good guy. My husband's pretty handy. But like some men I don't know with the with wrenches.

1:18:52

I'm not great with tools. But this was really

1:18:53

Oh my God. That doesn't mean he does anything with them. But he knows how to work them. Was intuition natural to you? Or did you have to work at it?

1:19:03

Natural?

1:19:04

What is the smallest thing we can do today to start our shift towards self recreation and the second half of life?

1:19:12

Think of one thing you're not going to come out of COVID with empty handed.

1:19:16

That's a good one.

1:19:17

Think of one thing about COVID that has made your life better not worse. And hold on tight like that. I

1:19:23

think I'm gonna write that on a post it note post it notes have become my best friend and the second half of life. What would your bottom line advice be on finding the sweet spot in the second half of life? Other than lamonica zpizza be authentic. Hmm. That was something that we didn't cover because we ran out of time. But I want to lead people to that in your book because you have a lot about authenticity and showing up as your authentic self. And I love that because I think now more than ever, we're all needing that.

1:19:58

I don't think there's anything thing that brings more peace than being authentic

1:20:03

for yourself and for others because people know when you're not being authentic. And I do want to say that one thing that you did talk about in the book it which I think is a little tidbit that it's important is you say that people call you and say, Steve, I'm going to see a friend who's dying of pancreatic cancer. What should I say? And what's your answer?

1:20:26

Three words, followed by two words. Just show up and be authentic. Don't put on some phony act, don't show up and say, oh, Sara, I'm so sorry. With this long drawn face. You should be with that person as they face death, exactly who you were with them in life. If you're a hugger, show up and hug if you're a joker show up and joke, if you're a feeder, show up and feed. If you're an errand runner, show up and run errands. If you're a listener, listen, if you're a hand holder, hold hands, just be who you were, who you were with them in life, as they face death, because that's what they need. And that is the only thing that really assures us that the bottom hasn't fallen out of the world. This is also true of mourners. Right, Sarah, if it when the day comes that you have a death in your family, and I show up at your house, I'm going to come in, I'm going to walk through that door. As Steve leader, I'm not going to walk into some phony, you know, hushed low voice and act like we don't know each other, we walk up and I'm going to say to you, this is the shittiest thing ever. I'm here, right? I'm going to be me. So that you know, not everything is gone.

1:21:38

Yeah.

1:21:39

So just show up and be authentic.

1:21:42

I think you also have talked about this, too, is sometimes when something bad happens to a friend or family member, we're so paralyzed because we don't know what to say that we don't say anything at all. Can you just quickly talk about that?

1:21:58

Yes. Well, first, let's talk about what not to say. Okay. Never say these seven words. Let me know if you need anything.

1:22:08

That's a great point.

1:22:10

That is the worst thing you can say. Because first of all, most people say it don't mean it. It's fake empathy. And even if you mean it, what have you done? You've given a person already carrying a terribly heavy load some homework, Sarah, let me know if you need anything. Well, you're not going to do that. Now. And now you have to tell me what you know, the what you need to do is you need to think to yourself, what would help me if I were in Sara situation, and just do it. Don't wait to be at carpool, drop a meal off, go to the doctors with you. You know, tell you that a great joke, whatever it is. Don't wait. Just act.

1:22:50

Okay. That's fine. If your friend doesn't respond, you go back again.

1:22:55

What do you mean by not respond? Not say, for the casserole?

1:22:58

What do you mean? No. But

1:22:59

I'm saying if you're like, oh, Can I grab your kids for carpool? And you don't hear back? Like I think a lot of people also shut down when they're not getting the response that they want.

1:23:08

I am coming over what can I what groceries do you need? I will leave them at the front door. Right? So just being very direct about it. Yeah, nobody wants extra homework. I love that. And in terms of, you know what to say, when you don't know what to say,

1:23:27

after 33 years, or when I'm standing in the hallway at the hospital before I walk in the hospital room. I don't know what I'm going to say. I just know I need to walk through the door and be myself. And it will all unfold. So it does you don't have to know what to say first of all, there is nothing to say. What is that? Right? Just show up. I'll tell you a beautiful custom that the Navajo Indians have in a Navajo village when someone dies, you go to the home of the mourners. You walk in, you sit down, you stay for a while. And then you leave. You say nothing, huh? You're just physically there. That's it. Just if you really don't know what to say, walk in the door, hug that person and just say, I'm here.

1:24:22

It's interesting, because that's what I do with my teenager sometimes, like I know, something should have happened or whatever. And I know they're not going to answer the 50,000 questions that I have. So as painful as it is for me to zip my lip, I walk in the room and I just sit down like, you know, a house plant and I just sort of wait for something to happen. But I think just your presence alone and your authentic presence, as you say, is good enough sometimes. And you're

1:24:49

just saying, I know this hurts. This really hurts.

1:24:54

I know. You don't have to have answers. I told you before this call my daughter came in and said I just can't do One more minute of zoom school. And I was like, Okay, well, do you want to homeschool teacher? Do you want to this? She goes, I don't want to answers. I just want you to listen to me. And then she closes the door. And I was like, Okay, all right. Sometimes all we need to do is say, it sounds awful. I know.

1:25:17

That sounds so hard.

1:25:18

We all want to be problem solvers at the end of the day, right?

1:25:22

Yeah. But

1:25:24

there are some problems for which there's no real solution you can provide. But let me let me put it to you this way. And maybe this will be an easy way for people to remember. And this is something I learned from a guy whose 30 year old daughter was killed in a car accident. And so there was a shiver. And everybody at the end had their arms around each other and was singing Oh, say Shalom, wait, will

1:25:47

you define what a Chavez really quickly

1:25:49

is a Shema is this Jewish mourning custom, where every day for seven days, we go to the home of the mourner, and, and pray, and just be so and one of the prayer services. At the end of it, everyone was singing at the end with their arms around each other. And this man said, he looked around this circle of people who were there to comfort him, and who care. And he said, This changes nothing. But it means everything.

1:26:18

I just I just got the chills, the same chills that I read in your book when you said that. That's what's showing up does it changes nothing, but it means everything.

1:26:29

Just walk in the door.

1:26:30

That is such a good quote to end on Rabbi Steve leader. I have enjoyed shoveling with you today. As I hope everyone has enjoyed your golden life nuggets as much as I have now. If people want to find you, where can they find you?

1:26:49

I think the best way is at Steve underscore leader on Instagram. That's really the only social media that I pay much attention to was dribble or temples, website, the books, the books on Amazon, easy to get easy to find. And those are the best ways.

1:27:04

Yes, this is definitely a must read. I have to be honest, I'm not a huge crier. There were at least three moments that I actually cried reading the book thinking like, Oh my god, kids, please don't walk in on me. I don't want to explain myself with my book here.

1:27:19

Supreme compliment.

1:27:21

Oh my god. So I want everyone to think about what shit they can start doing today one small step to bring meaning in their lives. I want to thank Rabbi leader for highlighting the inspiration that led him to writing this latest book, The beauty of what remains. It's helping us remember what the who is and why it's more important than the watch in life, and how we can find meaning in the present while remembering important pieces of our loved ones from the past. Death is so difficult, but as Rabbi leader says can be one of our greatest teachers. Thank you, Steve leader.

1:27:58

You are so welcome. It's an honor to be with you sir. Ah,

1:28:01

I so enjoy this. I could do it for days. Thank you talk to you so much.