Midlifers, Choose You, Too!

Helen Marie (00:00:00) - I didn't know who I was, I didn't know, I didn't even really know what my views and values were, or what was important to me, or whether I had any dreams left in me. And I really resented myself for thinking that my time had passed. I'm 50 now and more fulfilled than I've ever been.

Sarah Milken (00:00:25) - Hey peeps, welcome to the Flexible Neurotic Podcast. I'm your host, doctor Sarah Milken. Yeah, you heard that right. I'm a real PhD doctor. Long, long ago, like last fucking year, I was sitting in the midlife funk wondering, was this it for me? That day, I realized I needed to get off my ass and start my midlife remix. I dusted off my PhD, wipe the menopause sweat off my forehead, grabbed my golden shit shovel, and started digging deep to all my midlife bitches. It's not just luck, coffee, and hormones that get you through your midlife remix. It's action steps. Let's do this. Hi good peeps, this is the next episode of the Flexible Neurotic Podcast.

Sarah Milken (00:01:15) - I'm Doctor Sarah Millican, the flexible neurotic. Today I have a guest who's going to give us some golden nugget advice on choosing ourselves in midlife. I think I might have stopped you in your tracks because you're like choosing me. Choosing me. I'm in. I loved her on my Instagram and wanted you guys to hear from her herself. She is a London based registered psychotherapist with 400,000 social media followers. Oh my God. She specializes in helping clients develop the skills they need to understand themselves at a deeper level. She shares accessible and relatable advice about self-worth, trauma, attachment, and relationships. She has a new book out called Choose You Gentle Words to help you heal and Grow. This is not a regular self-help book. This is self-help meets deep think. Do the inner work, show up for yourself, repair yourself, and chill our nervous systems in in our superfast minds and lives. She believes that choosing you is not selfish, and we're going to dig into that and juicy concepts that will help us think, frame and get tools for our own midlife internal shit shows.

Sarah Milken (00:02:31) - Her name is Helen Marie. Hi, Helen.

Helen Marie (00:02:35) - Hello. Oh, my God.

Sarah Milken (00:02:38) - I'm so happy you're here. You have this amazing, gorgeous, like, magenta pink lamp next to you. It's so cute, I love it.

Helen Marie (00:02:48) - I'm honestly so hyped to be here. I've been, you know, I've been such a fan of this podcast for such a long time. I can't quite believe I'm sat here as a guest, so oh my God.

Sarah Milken (00:02:59) - And I can't believe you're here. Like the woman behind all the quotes on Instagram, everyone. Now everyone's going to go and look if they haven't already found you like the other 400,000 people. Oh my God. Okay. And then this morning when I opened my phone, I see that you have a new podcast at your first podcast. Tell us about that.

Helen Marie (00:03:25) - Yes. It's something I've been working on for a while, a couple of months. And it's. It's about the things we don't talk enough about. So I'm opening up space to try and normalize things.

Helen Marie (00:03:40) - So I've got guests, season ones virtually recorded. it's going to come out every Thursday, comes out this Thursday, and it's chatting to experts all around the world around mental health and mental well-being. and yeah, I'm really excited.

Sarah Milken (00:03:56) - And tell us what it's called.

Helen Marie (00:03:58) - I don't think we talk enough about dot dot dot.

Sarah Milken (00:04:02) - Oh. There's a lot of dots there. There's so many things that we don't talk about. And I love talking about things that we don't talk about, because I feel like it normalizes that, because I feel like for midlife women, there are so many of us who are like sitting at home thinking, why do I feel like this? What's happening? Is this normal? Why is this happening? I might be the TMI, very irreverent version of it, but I feel like if you just say it and you lay it down on the table, then you can have the conversation. It's not always easy, but it's better than keeping it all bottled up inside and wondering what's wrong with you.

Helen Marie (00:04:38) - And then when you bottle up, sorry, just chucking things off my desk. When you bottle it all up inside, you feel quite alone in those moments. But there's something quite amazing that when you start to hear people talking about things that you've struggled with, you feel less alone in that moment. So that's what I'm hoping the podcast does, actually, that people feel less alone when they listen and hopefully reach out to for help or resources. and let's give them such a, giving themselves such a hard time about something. So yeah, definitely, opening up space for the conversations that we're perhaps not having.

Sarah Milken (00:05:18) - Yeah, I feel like a lot of my platform is based on relatability and other people seeing me and hearing me talking about things that they're going through, because it's sort of like what we're just talking about of like not wanting to be alone, not necessarily being able to articulate exactly how you feel. And then you see someone like me or you come on Instagram and they're like, oh my God, that's exactly what I'm feeling.

Sarah Milken (00:05:46) - That's exactly what I'm thinking. And we all want to feel seen and heard.

Helen Marie (00:05:51) - I think that's the root of it. We do want to be to be seen and heard. And I think it sounds so simple in context, isn't it? But actually to when someone really sees you and he hears you, you think, I really haven't felt this before? This is why it feels so good. So I think those souls that really make you feel seen and heard, cherish, keep them close. Because sadly, they're few and far between.

Sarah Milken (00:06:22) - Yeah. And I also think what's interesting about this point in life is. You have an opportunity to kind of reassess who your friends were, who they are now, and maybe what types of friends you don't have that you feel like you need. Because in every different season of your life, you're kind of needing something else. So perhaps like in your 20s, you needed like those friends that would make you be more social and go out and kind of be more free.

Sarah Milken (00:06:52) - And, you know, maybe at a different point in your life, you need more like mom, carpool friends, people who are raising kids. And I feel like midlife is a time where you're kind of trying to figure out. Who your people are again and what you needed this time of your life.

Helen Marie (00:07:10) - And that can look really different to anything you've needed before. It can look so different. There's a real essence of identity shifting in those years. I remember, I mean, my children are a little bit older than yours, Sarah, but I remember going through a time where and I genuinely remember the moment thinking, it's not my time anymore. It's my children, as they were in their kind of late teenage years. And I really felt like I was like dropping away from who I was.

Sarah Milken (00:07:42) - You become invisible.

Helen Marie (00:07:44) - Yeah. And I felt it, and I, I was sat in a cafe and I was waiting for my daughter to come and meet me, and I felt like I'd lost myself completely.

Helen Marie (00:07:55) - I didn't know who I was, I didn't know, I didn't even really know what my views and values were, or what was important to me, or whether I had any dreams left in me. Absolutely. You're right. Invisible, gone. And I. I really resented myself for thinking that my time had passed. And ironically, I was probably 4142 then. I'm 50 now and more fulfilled than I've ever been. But what was interesting at 41, 42. I thought my life was that was it.

Sarah Milken (00:08:34) - I really want part of this episode or a lot of this episode to be about exactly that, like framing for midlife women, how at this point in our lives, not everyone has children, but whether you have children or not and you're ready for that next thing, or you're just starting to feel a little bit off, a little bit stuck, a little bit itchy for something new or different, how we can kind of harness that energy from feeling stuck in the mud to actually getting ourselves to dive in and really do what you call the inner work.

Sarah Milken (00:09:15) - And I want to I want to get into all of that. And I think that your book is a really good example of that. And like one of my question is, is why did you write this book? Was this book something that you needed? Was this book something that your clients needed? Like, what's the deal with the book? Because it was amazing.

Helen Marie (00:09:34) - Thank you. Thank you. It's really kind of you to say, I think it's a combination of both. I think I remember hearing Gabor Matti say that when you write a book, it's very often. The book that you needed to learn from. And isn't it bizarre that I've already said that when I was 4142, I felt very, very lost. Well, that's when I actually, incidentally, ended up going back to retrain. And I went on to do my second master's in psychotherapy and counselling because I needed something new and I there's a long journey, and it's quite a personal journey of how I ended up into psychotherapy and counselling, but I'm very glad I did.

Helen Marie (00:10:17) - I'm not going to share that story right now, but. The book I've written is all about finding that way to choose you when you feel a bit lost. Because very often we feel lost because we don't know ourselves. We feel lost because of the inner scripts that we're telling ourselves. The self-limiting beliefs, that we listen to, that we sit back and people please, we don't think as I did, you know, not my time anymore. We we have so much self-doubt about our own role, whether that comes from society, whether that comes from, much earlier scripts in our life. So I started to look at all the factors that contribute to you doubting yourself and get you to get a better, deeper understanding of who you really are and why you are the way you are. I mean, the whole way through that book, you see it's question after question after question. The book doesn't give you the answers. It helps you find your own answers.

Sarah Milken (00:11:26) - Right. And I think that that's one of the themes and, and mantras of my platform in my midlife journey is that no one's coming to rescue you.

Sarah Milken (00:11:36) - And Helen, a psychotherapist and author now a podcaster, isn't going to have the exact answer. The only thing that we can do for each other is kind of lay out what the questions were that we started asking ourselves, but we can't always give the answers because everyone's answers are going to be different. Like in my situation. Like I have a bunch of friends who have like started companies. I have a bunch of friends who have amazing hobbies and groups of friends, and they play mahjong and pickleball, and everyone is looking for something different. Some people are looking for a solo project, like writing a book, and some people are looking for more connections. So they're joining these groups. But not everyone's is going to be the same. And we don't need to judge what everyone else's are we? And we don't have to have the same as of what everyone else's are, because not everyone's going to want to start a podcast or write a book. Of course not. And not everyone's going to want to play pickleball or play mahjong or, you know, start an Etsy shop or whatever it is.

Sarah Milken (00:12:42) - But I feel like a lot of times we can't figure out what those things are. But a lot of that is because we've never stopped and taking the time, but stopping and taking the time and looking at a blank page and not knowing what to write or what to say is kind of scary.

Helen Marie (00:13:00) - It is. Firstly, what's pickleball?

Sarah Milken (00:13:05) - It's kind of like it's like a it's kind of like tennis.

Helen Marie (00:13:09) - Okay. It's like, okay.

Sarah Milken (00:13:11) - That's so funny because here it's like all the rage that's.

Helen Marie (00:13:15) - On the other one. It's a pickleball.

Sarah Milken (00:13:17) - Mahjong, like, you know, like the tiles, the games. I don't know if you guys have, you just probably have a different name for it. Yeah.

Helen Marie (00:13:25) - Okay. So no, but as you said, it's the questions is the questions you ask to connect to yourself. I remember years ago in when I was training, sat at university, there was a group of 20, 25 of us in the room and the psychotherapist taking the session said, right, I want you all to write down on a piece of paper what airport means to you.

Helen Marie (00:13:54) - And I. I'm here to become a psychotherapist. What? What do you mean? What does an airport mean? No word of a lie when we read them all back out. There were 25 different descriptions of what an airport meant to people. And in that moment, you realise that we all come with such different experiences wants, needs, issues, problems, dreams. They're never the same. So you're right. It's about looking at what you need. I can ask all the questions and help guide you. And the book. Also with those questions gets you to really tap into what your body does as you answer those questions. As you read those questions, is there resistance? Is there openness? What's coming up for you in your nervous system the whole time? There's so much more information in our inner wisdom and our nervous system than we sometimes give it credit for.

Sarah Milken (00:14:57) - Totally. And I think what's interesting, like even raising teenagers myself, well, my kids, I know, honestly, it's like work in progress.

Sarah Milken (00:15:06) - But, you know, I was talking to one of my kids and they were talking about how, you know, they weren't sure if they wanted to do this project, to commit to it, to not commit to it. And historically, it's come with a lot of baggage, like different personalities, lots of mixed all together. And I just said, like, how does that make your nervous system feel like? Or is or is every red flag going off? Because if every red flag is going off, that's a no. That's different than resistance, though, because I know for me, even going through this journey myself, I do have like sometimes my nervous system is like, oh my God, I can't record one more podcast. I'm so tired. That's different than this situation is ruining my life, or this is toxic, or these people are not good for me or whatever it is. There's a difference between resistance. That's just normal of like self-doubt. Can I really do this or is this just not good for me?

Helen Marie (00:16:10) - I think you're right.

Helen Marie (00:16:11) - And with resistance, I always put it as remember that resistance can be seen as your nervous system trying to keep you safe. So actually, when you're saying, oh, I can't record another podcast, your nervous system is saying, Sarah, give me a break. I need a rest. Give me the rest, and then I can come back. So it's giving meaning to the resistance. Listening to the sensations in the body. The red flags. Yes. Let's start using our inner wisdom. What's coming up here? Let's use our, Let's use our knowledge base here. Yeah.

Sarah Milken (00:16:48) - Like, are these the people that are good for me, that's a totally different conversation.

Helen Marie (00:16:53) - And that's and that's really tapping, tapping into our parenting brain, which if you think about our prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until we're 26. That makes that very hard for the teenagers. Because they find it very hard to have reasoning, rationale and resources to pull upon. They. I would say then they need to tap into the prefrontal cortex of their parents.

Helen Marie (00:17:22) - Oh my God. They have a good choice.

Sarah Milken (00:17:24) - Yeah, exactly. Unless they're like, running for the hills like mine. I don't know, I'm just kidding. But I think all of this, all of this quote work is something that you get into in the book called self work. And I've heard other people call it inner work or, you know, there's a lot of different names for it. But when a midlife woman comes into your office for the sake of this podcast because it's a midlife podcast.

Helen Marie (00:17:47) - I know.

Sarah Milken (00:17:47) - Like, what are the things like, what are the things you're hearing and what are the suggestions like the key pieces, the tools that you're giving them to dive into this and really get unstuck? Like for the time when you're in the cafe, like when you were in that cafe, like thinking to yourself, oh my God, my I'm disappearing. How did you get from that to okay, I'm going back to school because there's a lot of steps in between there.

Helen Marie (00:18:20) - Okay? I mean, there are a lot of steps.

Helen Marie (00:18:23) - I think I think there's deep self honesty, and I think it's about remembering that we're living organisms. We find a way to survive. And I think if you have even a seed of. I want to change. Life has to be more than this. Give that seed water. Let it bloom because it's come up for a reason, and then do the work which might be reaching out to friends, talking to people you trust, saying, I'm just not feeling myself. You know, there's look to people you'll be inspired by, listen to podcasts, read good books. I always say to people, nothing changes if nothing changes. You have to be the advocate for that change. You have to look at what your own needs are and start to advocate for them. And I think the the premise of the book is you matter to. And we show up, particularly at this stage in our life. We show up a lot for the people around us, don't we? We really do. And our needs do get.

Helen Marie (00:19:48) - Neglected. Forgotten unless we give them a voice. But you know.

Sarah Milken (00:19:53) - What's so interesting and kind of weird about this process is when everything begins to feel like it's slowing down, like you're in the cafe, you're feeling less relevant. You're moving from like, head mom to consulting mom. You're going from manager to consultant parent. Yeah. And you're feeling less relevant. It's sort of like. You have more time, but it almost feels worse because you don't know what to do with that time.

Helen Marie (00:20:26) - Absolutely. You lose your purpose.

Sarah Milken (00:20:28) - So yeah. So you're sitting there going, okay, but what now I have the time that I've been wanting. And now I just don't know what to do.

Helen Marie (00:20:39) - I know, and that's when you start delving into the questions. You know what sparks you? What? I mean, there's a lovely question we use a lot in therapy, which is and, you know, and it is it is, a whimsical question, but it often helps if you could wave a magic wand, what would you like your life to look like in five years? So we use it as a very powerful visualization exercise.

Helen Marie (00:21:09) - I can't tell a client in front of me who's struggling what they want their life to look like in five years. But they can start to run a movie. We call it run a movie. So I get them to relax into their body and then run a movie in their mind from start to middle. We don't go much further than that. And just what would you like that movie to play out? Like? How would you like to be in that movie? What kind of people are around you? What are you doing? And that movie can really be quite eye opening. And then I bring them back into the room, not in an hypnotic way, but just come back to the present. And what came up for them, what was new there. Now that then gives us the starting point to say, okay, how are we going to get from here where we feel stuck to this beautiful movie of what you would like your life to look like? And that's a very deep therapeutic process of inner self work of of change, of change, of being in the driving seat of that change to and not just letting life happen around you.

Sarah Milken (00:22:25) - Now when you are sitting in that cafe, from that time to the time where you actually went back to school, like, did you always know you wanted to go back to school, or is that something that you fell upon?

Helen Marie (00:22:39) - I mean, I fell upon it, really. I fell upon it. And then I made a lot of changes as a result. So I fell upon it from a circumstantial perspective in that I used to be, a public health specialist and infectious diseases, for the Health Protection Agency in London. Loved it. LED in meningitis, very passionate about my career. Took a career break. Thought I may go back to that, but during that career break, someone very close to me struggled with their mental health and the support they got from psychotherapy psychiatrists was phenomenal. And there was my sign without me realised I was looking for it. That said, that's what I want to do. And that's why I went back and trained.

Sarah Milken (00:23:31) - So it was a personal moment, a little bit of synchronicity.

Helen Marie (00:23:35) - Yes.

Sarah Milken (00:23:36) - And all the energies kind of mixing together to create that. And did it feel easy for you like, oh, I'm just going to apply to schools or did you have resistance to it? Did it feel like not everything was perfect?

Helen Marie (00:23:50) - I felt sick at points. There were. So when I first I remember going for the interview and I remember thinking, oh, I could be part of something again. I felt like I'd lost being part of something. I'd got lost living my life, and I felt like there was something new and exciting. That's all great in the beginning, until you have to study and you have to do the work and you have to read the papers. And there was plenty of self-doubt, plenty of self-doubt. But I think, I think there's part of you that kind of pushes through that because you think, I've started this for a reason. I can't give up now. And the changes as a result. I mean, I had to go through over 100 personal therapy hours myself.

Helen Marie (00:24:36) - The mirror was held up, I learnt lots, so I think I'm just bringing that journey to other people at that stage in their life of a deeper understanding where you do start to choose yourself to.

Sarah Milken (00:24:53) - And why do you think the choosing yourself feels so selfish? Is it a societal thing? Is it a like what is that? Because we all feel it.

Helen Marie (00:25:08) - I think. I think it's going to shift. I think it's going to shift, but I think that many people don't have. The upbringing where they are encouraged to choose themselves too. So there's lots of. Get on with it. Don't cry. You'll be alright. Don't let anyone know you're struggling. Mask. Mask. Mask. Hide. Hide, hide. And then on top of that is a societal pressure and cultural pressure to not choose yourself because it's selfish. But when you just add the word choose you too, you realize that we're all wanting our friends and family to choose themselves, to look at the friend that's in a in a damaging, toxic relationship, not choosing themselves.

Helen Marie (00:26:09) - You'd want them to choose themselves and speak up and advocate for themself and take up space and set boundaries, or leave, or get couples therapy that's choosing themselves. The person, the mother who's low and lonely and not doing anything about it, just purely there for her children, but actually quite unhappy in that state. You'd love to see her choosing herself, having some time for herself so she can show up as a better mother. The ripple effect on the children is vast. So I think when we change it from Choose you to choose you two and how we'd want those around us to choose themselves, you kind of think, well, why can't I reflect that back on me?

Sarah Milken (00:27:01) - I really love that, and I really appreciate talking about the parenting piece and the childhood piece, and we were going to get to that. I was going to get to that a little bit later in the conversation. But I guess we can talk about it now, because you do say that this idea of reprinting yourself is a huge theme that comes up around this time in your life.

Sarah Milken (00:27:26) - First of all, what does repenting mean if someone's listening and going, I don't really understand what she means. And how does it play into our midlife self reinvention journey where we're trying to figure out what's next for us? I mean, obviously we could do 27 episodes on attachment theory and read parenting and all the things, but just kind of like the bottom line, crux of it.

Helen Marie (00:27:54) - Well, repenting from a therapy point of view is giving yourself the love and attention and care you need that you might never have received before. So it's in very simplistic terms. Being there for yourself, but being on your own side. So it's engaging that nurturing in a narrative that it doesn't matter what age we are, we still need that care and looking after, don't we? Yeah. You know, when you can sit there sometimes and feel very isolated. I remember stages through parenting where I felt incredibly isolated. And this isn't a woe be me or for me. It's not that. It's just it can be incredibly isolating.

Helen Marie (00:28:45) - You know, my husband's out at work all day, got a career mixing with other people, and sometimes in parenting it can be quite lonely. It can be really quite lonely and boring.

Sarah Milken (00:28:57) - And like Groundhog Day, where you're living the same day over and over again. I hate to say it, but it's true because it's the same day over and over.

Helen Marie (00:29:05) - I know, I know, and I've actually got interestingly, I've actually got some clients that are stay at home dads, and it's really interesting hearing their perspective of they're struggling. They're struggling with the monotony of it, of not mixing with adults, of not feeling and a purpose outside of the children. Look, Sarah, lots of people get an awful lot of fulfillment from having children.

Sarah Milken (00:29:34) - Having kids is that was the best. Being a parent was the best job of my life, and at a certain point, I needed something else to.

Helen Marie (00:29:43) - Yes. And I love that. It's the it's the and statement isn't it? I love my children and I love being a mommy.

Helen Marie (00:29:52) - And I need something else for me to. But we seem to cut off that. And as a parent, don't we? I love being a mummy and I love my children. That's it. But there is another layer that needs exploring, that needs fulfilling. That brings us back to be, in my opinion, and in my own personal story, made me a better mother. Definitely. So coming back to repenting, it's about giving yourself that love and care and attention that perhaps you're lacking or did lack and beginning to meet those needs. Listening to yourself. Being that advisory in the moment. How can I best get through this moment? What do I need? For many of us, we might not know the answers to that, but it could be reaching out to someone. It could be saying, I actually need to speak to my husband about this later, not just sit in silence. I need support. And it's quite amazing how something unfolds as we communicate with people. All that happens when we stay in our own mind is we ruminate.

Sarah Milken (00:31:06) - Oh my gosh, I'm like rumination station.

Helen Marie (00:31:10) - Oh, honestly, it just goes round and round and round.

Sarah Milken (00:31:14) - Round and around and around.

Helen Marie (00:31:16) - Doesn't go anywhere.

Sarah Milken (00:31:17) - But what's interesting is sometimes, like you said, sometimes someone else can break that for you. Like my mom, for example, she was a has been a career woman her whole life. And she, you know, she wasn't a big exerciser because she was always at work. But now that she's retired and she's 75, I'm like, okay, mom, now you need to start exercising. And she's like, what are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing. There was a lot of resistance to it. I don't like it. It's boring. I mean, I nagged her for two years and she called me the other day and she said, thank you. She's like, I fought you for two years. I told you I didn't want to do it. I gave you every reason in the book that I couldn't do it, and you just kept sticking on it.

Sarah Milken (00:32:06) - Mom, mom, mom, you have to do this. Mental health, physical health, phones, all the things. And she goes, I've done it. I just got my Dexa scan back and it's better. And I thought, oh my God, like we all have so much resistance to trying new things and doing things that we don't necessarily want to do that are uncomfortable like most people don't want to work out. I mean, I call them the dumb weights because I'm like, oh, I have to lift weights again. Oh, like it's so annoying. But they're the dumb, necessary weights because I know that I need that for my body health. So for me, that's like checking the box. It's not like doing something that's terrible that I hate. I just it's not my favorite, but I do it because I need it for my body. Yeah.

Helen Marie (00:32:59) - Yeah, but you're caring for yourself. Yes. In a really? Oh, what's the word I'm looking for? In a way that you're bettering yourself.

Helen Marie (00:33:11) - You're being there for yourself. And so many women don't make those choices, Sarah. I mean, if I. If I can think of clients now, that would be staggered by your commitment to that. They couldn't imagine doing that and actually thinking that they matter enough to do that level of self-care.

Sarah Milken (00:33:34) - Right. But and the funny thing is, is I don't like it. No, I have some friends who love working out, and they love lifting weights, and they love walking for 10,000 steps. I don't I don't pretend that I do. I would much rather sit on my ass and scroll Instagram. I mean, I'll take that any day of the week. but there are certain things in life that we just have to do.

Helen Marie (00:33:58) - But do you not get a healthier level of dopamine when you do your weights? Then you do on scrolling Instagram. Oh, I'm sure I do. I'm sure I do. Healthier choice. Yeah, it's a healthier choice.

Sarah Milken (00:34:11) - It's like, do I want to eat the real ice cream? Yeah.

Sarah Milken (00:34:15) - Can I get away with the frozen yogurt that has a little less sugar and more chemicals? Yeah. Like, everything in life is a give and take, you know? And that's the other thing is I think that in society, it's like you either have to be like a weight lifter and look like a supermodel, or you just don't do it at all. And I think for me, it's just been about. Kind of the good enough. Like, what's my good enough? Like if I have an hour workout scheduled but I'm not in the mood, I do it for 30 minutes and I move on. I'm not into self punishment. If something doesn't feel good, I don't have to do it at full capacity all the time.

Helen Marie (00:34:59) - And I think that's really important. And the and the issue we have now is we're seeing so much on social media, aren't we of extreme. That our goal for kind of this perceived perception and perceived perfection is escalated out of extremes. And it's.

Sarah Milken (00:35:21) - Beyond.

Helen Marie (00:35:22) - And it's and I think it's about breaking it back, as you said, balance.

Helen Marie (00:35:26) - It's breaking it back down into balance. The small steps we can take that that small step on that dirt track of that neural pathway that says, this will make me feel better and keep going down that path, because it does make you feel better. Ultimately, it does make you feel better, and I I'm sorry.

Sarah Milken (00:35:47) - Go ahead.

Helen Marie (00:35:48) - No, to say, I bet the weeks that you haven't cared for yourself, you haven't put yourself first to. I bet they've not been as great mentally.

Sarah Milken (00:35:59) - Oh, 1,000%. Like there are weeks where I'm, like, helping one of my kids with something and I have to cancel all my workouts or, you know, like this morning, I'm recording with you, so I'm not working out. Then I have two meetings and I'm thinking, there's no way I'm working out at 5:00. But I kind of knew that. So I walked on the treadmill yesterday, even though I typically don't work out on Sundays. But it's not perfect. It's not. It's like just kind of making it work and doing the best I can with the little icing on top.

Sarah Milken (00:36:33) - You know, it's not the bare minimum. It's not the extreme. It's kind of just enough. I checked my fucking boxes for the week, you know what I mean?

Helen Marie (00:36:43) - Yeah. And that's that's self accountability that you've got there. It's just fantastic, sir.

Sarah Milken (00:36:50) - It's not perfect, though. And I'm not a punisher. So if I miss something or I. Whatever, I don't self punish. I'm like, you know what? I wasn't into it. We're going to move on and we're going to do the, the next thing. I think for me, one of, and I think for a lot of women living life up until midlife feels pretty linear in the sense of like, you go to elementary school, you go to middle school, you go to high school, you go to university or not, you get married. Maybe you don't, but it's a lot of performance box checking. I check that box, I check that box. But by the time you get to this age, and if you have kids and or a spouse, you've checked a lot of boxes already, and then you get to a point where you have more time and you don't know what the box is.

Sarah Milken (00:37:41) - There aren't a lot of boxes from midlife till death, do you know what I'm saying? It's a lot of free time.

Helen Marie (00:37:49) - I know, I know, and.

Sarah Milken (00:37:50) - It's almost easier. Like if you have the structure, like you said, of like, oh, you went back to school. So I don't know how long you're schooling was. Let's say it's two years or three years, you know, what you're doing for those 2 to 3 years because it's structured by the school program. But I think what's hard about midlife is there is no structure to it. You have to create the structure. It's very free in an amazing kind of way, in a very free in a paralyzing way of like, nobody's telling me what to do. I don't have to be in carpool. I don't have to make a school lunch. I don't have to volunteer at the school play. So what am I doing?

Helen Marie (00:38:31) - I know, I know, and that takes a period of adjustment, doesn't it? Because your nervous system has been in go go go go go go for years and then you're just stopping?

Sarah Milken (00:38:45) - Totally.

Helen Marie (00:38:46) - And. But that's where I think that running the movie visualization can be so helpful. I mean, it can stop a few people. It's like, I've got no idea. How can I have no idea, but sit with it? Look at your role models. Who's around you? Who are you inspired by? Be inspired. Don't think that you can't do it to. Look at ways that you could also achieve that, have that, whatever that is. I don't mean on a big scale, you know, narrow it right down. But what what makes you think, yeah, that's what I'd get up and do in the morning.

Sarah Milken (00:39:28) - Yeah. It's all about what? What would you do? And that doesn't mean it's not hard, though, because, like, you and I both get up in the morning like I want to do my podcast, I want to show up on Instagram. But there are days where I'm like, oh my God, I can't do this for one more minute. I'm just going to close my whole podcast.

Sarah Milken (00:39:44) - I'm going to shut down my Instagram account. And I think with mid-life hormones and all those changes that were going through that, it gets all mixed up and sometimes you just feel like a swampy mess.

Helen Marie (00:39:58) - Okay. And what do you do on those days?

Sarah Milken (00:40:00) - I just do what I literally like, lay on my bed and do nothing.

Helen Marie (00:40:04) - I love that. I just.

Sarah Milken (00:40:06) - Yeah.

Helen Marie (00:40:07) - Yeah. Your body is basically saying you're going into a bit of what you call like a freeze response. Totally. You know, you've dipped out. You've dipped out of what we call your window of tolerance into a kind of I just can't do any of it anymore. So you're not being able to do the things you want to do. So I always say to people, listen to that. Listen to your body in the moment. It wants you to stop. It's not going to stop forever. It's just going to stop for that day or that hour or. And then something else will happen. I think we so often think that life is stuck and it stays still.

Helen Marie (00:40:46) - It's shifting and moving all the time. It's fluid.

Sarah Milken (00:40:51) - You have an analogy that you talk about in your book. I think it's like a frozen river, a frozen puddle or something. And it was like a frozen body of water. And you say you're never going to unstick the freezing ness of the water. Do you know what I mean? Like you're never going to get through the ice chips, the all the things, but you have to figure out how to maneuver yourself to get flow and heat and energy through the block of ice. And so maybe an example of that is like, you show up at the dinner that maybe you didn't really want to go to, but you knew you were going to maybe meet some new people that would kind of re inspire you. Tell us a little bit about that.

Helen Marie (00:41:39) - So the river analogy is about when you can't let go of something and you feel stuck. And so it's that frozen. And I talk about the fact of using heat to melt the water so it can flow again.

Helen Marie (00:41:56) - And when we're talking about the self work and the inner work heat, I'm talking about compassion for yourself. I'm talking about movement. I'm talking about self-care and coming back to movement. When we give our emotions movement, they shift from feeling stuck. So that's why we talk. Therapists talk a lot about dance your emotions out, you know, chalk on a really good song or playlist. Literally feel the music. Dance like no one's watching. Get a journal. Write down your feelings. Get them out of your body. Go for a run. Go for a walk. What happens is that when we start to move, where we start to, it's almost like moving through a tunnel. The thoughts that gets stuck at the back of our head and our ruminating and that are just flooding into our body, making us feel more stuck. What we actually end up doing is engaging the front part of our brain, which stops the back part of our brain. It doesn't sound very scientific. It is quite.

Sarah Milken (00:43:16) - Scientific.

Helen Marie (00:43:16) - I get it from the ruminating thoughts. So you start to engage a different part of your brain, which then stops you feeling stuck in the thoughts. So not always easy to do. I mean, goodness, my thoughts tend to come in spiraling form in the middle of the night.

Sarah Milken (00:43:35) - Really such a good time.

Helen Marie (00:43:38) - Oh, and and do I ever think, let's go and do the things that are good for me? No. I lie there with the ruminating thoughts and they're the most ridiculous thing. So I'm embarrassed to even admit what I might be spiraling thoughts are.

Sarah Milken (00:43:54) - They all have it, Jarvis. Just crazy.

Helen Marie (00:43:58) - So we have to give movement so it is. Get out of bed. Go and make a cup of tea. You know, go and do something. Otherwise you'll stay in bed for 2 or 3 hours with that same stupid, pesky thought going round and round. I know.

Sarah Milken (00:44:13) - And I think sometimes, like, I'm like an introverted extrovert or an extroverted introvert, whatever it is.

Sarah Milken (00:44:19) - And like, I can go for three days and have a bunch of meetings and podcasts and dinners and all the things, and then I need like two days by myself, just by myself. And it's not depressed. It's not sad. It's like just kind of giving my nervous system a break from absorbing other people's energy.

Helen Marie (00:44:44) - Yes, one of the tricks I use for that and it's difficult, but it can be quite a good visualization is the bubble technique. So that you imagine you have a bubble around you, and between you and the outside edge of the bubble is your beautiful, serene, safe, quiet space and anything else that comes up. The negative, the noise. You literally let it come up to the bubble and bounce off. And somehow that just helps create a bit of distance between you and all that noise that can come in. But I think also what you're doing with those 2 or 3 days rest is meeting your needs.

Sarah Milken (00:45:32) - Yeah. And it may not be laying in bed. It may be talking on the phone with the best friend.

Sarah Milken (00:45:38) - It may be going to the mall and walking around stores aimlessly, but not have it, but choosing whatever I want to be doing or what feels good to me, whether it's super productive or not.

Helen Marie (00:45:52) - That's your call. And that's your prerogative, isn't it? In the moment, this is what I need. And what you're doing is using the tools that bring your nervous system back to a healthy rhythm that doesn't feel quite so activated.

Sarah Milken (00:46:08) - And I think for some people it's going out and like meeting a million friends and having a drink. And for other people, it's a night at home. Maybe you're not even watching TV. Maybe you're, I don't know, reorganizing your pantry. I don't know whatever it is. But everyone's version is going to look different.

Helen Marie (00:46:30) - Which is what I was saying about the airport word. You know, we all have a different meaning for what works for us in those moments. It's finding yours, and it's finding yours and and giving you the yourself, the approval that that's okay if that's your preferred method.

Helen Marie (00:46:49) - So often with social media, we think we should be out. We need more friends. We should be doing more. we should be more like that person.

Sarah Milken (00:47:00) - I need to have that supplement I need I know, goodness, how many, how.

Helen Marie (00:47:04) - Many times have you bought? So.

Sarah Milken (00:47:07) - Oh, my God, I'm guilty of it. My husband's like, are you starting a vitamin store? What's happening here? I'm just slowing.

Helen Marie (00:47:14) - Down those external messages. Slowing that down. What do you really need? And letting go of that should, should, should which can be so loud in that busy social media world?

Sarah Milken (00:47:28) - Well, I think there's a quote in your book that I want to read that I think will make people feel a lot better. It says you aren't broken. You are an emotional, aren't an emotional mess. You aren't damaged. You aren't unlovable. You may just need some gentleness to guide you back home to a relationship with yourself that feels more nourished, deeply supportive, and understanding.

Helen Marie (00:47:55) - I'm glad you pulled that quote out. I think that's the essence, isn't it? And as you, as you were reading that, I was thinking, this taps into the importance of developing a secure attachment to ourselves. We think about attachment with others so much, don't we? So how we attach to our partners, our children. But what's your own attachment to yourself like?

Sarah Milken (00:48:26) - You talk about coming home. I want you to. We keep reading about it on social media in magazine articles. What does that mean and how do we know if we're home.

Helen Marie (00:48:44) - Okay, so I think I touched on it in several chapters, don't I? Yeah. Because I think coming home from a therapy point of view is that deep connection with your authentic core self. Now that sounds great and looks great written on paper, but very few people know what that really feels like. So the work is looking at what makes you feel good. Who are the people in your life that you feel safest with? Why? It's looking at that authenticity.

Helen Marie (00:49:24) - What are your values? What? When you read something, what do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Tap into that. Don't just agree with everything because of your people pleasing tendencies. What are you feel? What is your nervous system do when you're reading that? So I think it's about that deeper connection with your core self. Sarah, it's not easy. And I spent way too many years not knowing what that was, but it's a really wonderful feeling when you can just say, no, that's not for me. This is for me.

Sarah Milken (00:50:10) - So coming home is knowing what's. What's for you and what's not. Yeah.

Helen Marie (00:50:17) - So that you get that, you know, when you can take that breath in. And then a little bit more. Now, in situations where we're not being authentic or don't feel ourselves, we can't take that big, deep breath. Because we don't feel relaxed enough. So I think it's anything that makes our body just feel.

Sarah Milken (00:50:45) - Super.

Helen Marie (00:50:46) - Safe.

Sarah Milken (00:50:50) - We spend so many.

Sarah Milken (00:50:51) - Why? So many kids in high school are so uncomfortable? Because they don't feel like school is a place where they can take a deep breath.

Helen Marie (00:51:05) - I mean, it certainly can be for some groups of children. You know, it's it's a very good environment for them. But for so many, as I know personally, school is a really, really, really difficult journey. And I think, I think you've hit something there. It's very hard to turn up day in and day out in an environment that feels incredibly. This align to something you would want? Is that a word? Dislike?

Sarah Milken (00:51:31) - I think so, or misaligned? I don't even know. But I get it at the end.

Helen Marie (00:51:35) - Of my day.

Sarah Milken (00:51:36) - So using the beginning of my day. But I'm saving my coffee for after the podcast.

Helen Marie (00:51:41) - So putting yourself in an environment where you don't feel regulated. That's tough. So I would say make sure that child is supported outside of the environment where they can find regulation.

Sarah Milken (00:51:59) - I feel like it's for moms too.

Sarah Milken (00:52:02) - Like yeah I know there are a lot of different schools where I have felt differently as a, as a person. Okay. Like even in this group of moms, I, you know, in this particular group of moms, I feel really comfortable in this group of moms, I feel really uncomfortable, I feel judged. So I think it's for adults, too. It's like finding the places where you don't feel so judged and you can be you and you can take that deep breath. I mean, what.

Helen Marie (00:52:34) - Are we here for? If we can't do that?

Sarah Milken (00:52:37) - I know. What are we here for?

Helen Marie (00:52:38) - If we're spending our time in circles where we feel judged. Step away. I mean, I've got a whole chapter in my book on understanding others because I felt that was really important to understand where other people are coming from. We can't be for everyone. As every one isn't for us. But I think when you do the work. You have an ability to hold more space for others and to walk away from them too.

Sarah Milken (00:53:10) - Yeah, and to understand that everyone else has their own baggage and story, you know? And a lot of the time, it's not about you. It's about them.

Helen Marie (00:53:19) - Absolutely.

Sarah Milken (00:53:19) - But I do like that question that you bring up in the book where you say to ask yourself. Does this feel like me or where do I feel the most like myself? Because I think a lot of times, by the time we get to this point in our lives, we don't even know or remember.

Helen Marie (00:53:38) - If I asked you that, where do you. Where do you feel most? You.

Sarah Milken (00:53:44) - With my family. Like my immediate family in my home. Yeah.

Helen Marie (00:53:50) - And I bet your nervous system relax as she said that, didn't I?

Sarah Milken (00:53:53) - Yes. Like I, I am not a big partier. Go out, be with a million people. I am most comfortable, like in my house with my husband, knowing my kids are accounted for. That's my that's my my happy place. Whereas other people who are much more sort of social than I am, they're happy places, you know, being on a vacation with 40 friends and that's okay.

Sarah Milken (00:54:23) - You know what I mean? Because that's where they're getting joy from. But for me, I would rather be on a family vacation just with my husband and two kids. Yeah, it just depends on what's good for you. And I think a lot of people aren't willing to say what they want. They just kind of give in to what they've been doing for the last four decades and what's been asked of them, and I'm just want to urge women to take this time right now and say, you know what? I'm sick of traveling with those six families. When I travel with those six families, my nervous system is not happy. I'm walking on eggshells. I have to worry about how I look all the time, and I'm not enjoying the actual vacation.

Helen Marie (00:55:09) - Exactly, exactly. And what I loved about even just asking you that question, and you noticing that your body settled into that kind of that is what I like. That is where I feel my happiest is. You can then from that place own that about you.

Helen Marie (00:55:28) - This is who I am. This is what makes me happiest. And from there we start to create the step of not worrying about whether others are judging us. We'd rather be us doing this. And then something from that shifts. Notice the release of worrying about what others are thinking. It's it can just be so freeing.

Sarah Milken (00:55:53) - I think a lot of times, like one of my friends who started a her own, I guess, like business project. She said, you know, Sarah, one thing you said to me that made me decide to actually go and do it is what would you do if no one was watching? Because a lot of times we don't do the things we want to do because we think other people are going to be judging us. And in fact, they might judge you for five seconds. But first of all, who cares? But second of all, if they have the time to be doing that, they should be finding something else to do.

Helen Marie (00:56:31) - Exactly. And and, you know, supporting that is I mean, it's a very existential quote, but and you know, that we often use is life is a dress rehearsal.

Helen Marie (00:56:43) - You know. I'm sure you've heard that. And why? Why are we living it any other way? You know, it's, there's all those books, aren't there? Around the regrets of the elderly.

Sarah Milken (00:56:57) - Yeah. And,

Helen Marie (00:56:59) - You know, there's something in that, Sarah.

Sarah Milken (00:57:01) - You know.

Helen Marie (00:57:02) - Run that movie. Run that movie. How do I want my life to be? What do I want to be doing? How can I take one tiny step today to move towards that?

Sarah Milken (00:57:16) - I know it's so hard for us. So if there's a woman, a midlife woman who comes into your office, my kids are out of the house. My husband's playing golf and working. What? What what's next for me? Like what? Where do you be? Where does one begin that work? Because everyone talks about doing the work, doing the work. But unless you have a therapist who has, you know, the 12 week or 12 month journey of taking you from A to Z, it feels very haphazard and I don't know where to start.

Sarah Milken (00:57:51) - And I'm looking on social media and I'm reading Helen Murray's quotes and I'm listening to these podcasts. But it's hard for me to kind of put it all together. How do you lay out that kind of non-linear journey to feel like you're actually making progress?

Helen Marie (00:58:09) - I think quiet and down the outside noise. Look at what you used to enjoy doing before. Life stopped you doing those things. You like those for a reason. Can you connect back to those again? What would you like your life to look like? Who does inspire you? If we keep doing the same thing, we'll get the same result. We have to trust. If we just do something a little bit different, maybe we have to try a variety of things. Maybe we need to try things that we might not feel comfortable trying. Just trust in the process of being more open minded. It's again, as I said in the beginning. Where's the seed? What is that seed? Nurture it. Water it. Give it time. So often people are rushing processes, aren't they?

Sarah Milken (00:59:13) - It's given.

Sarah Milken (00:59:13) - We want the 12 week plan to. I know film, but I.

Helen Marie (00:59:17) - Also think that it's really important that yes, we do the self work, but I think it's so. Crucial not to overlook that the people we surround ourselves with matter wholly.

Sarah Milken (00:59:33) - Yeah.

Helen Marie (00:59:33) - So your you must be familiar with the the, happiness study. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Longevity is from. The positive relationships in our life. They affect everything that I know when the relationships in my life are healthy. I'm happier. So it could be a starting point. You look at who you're spending your time with. They're not inspiring you, making you feel good about yourself. You don't want to spend time with them. You don't feel you. You don't feel safe. How can we shift this? How can we find other nervous systems where we get a beautiful Co regulation? It's not about codependency. And I'm not talking just about romantic relationships. Any relationships positive relationships in our life that lift and inspire us. And I would probably say that's a key element in midlife is who's around you?

Sarah Milken (01:00:43) - Yeah, I think that the who's at your midlife table matters, and you can't you can't create the guest list and day or in a week or in a month, it has to be a very intentional.

Sarah Milken (01:00:57) - Thought process and journey of kind of thinking about like, okay, what kind of energy do I want? What kind of energy am I done with? And what how am I making this energy match what I'm wanting? Like I like for me, I want people who are inspiring and people who are supportive. I'm not here for like I've already had enough of, like, why do you do that? And that's this and blah blah blah, all the judgy, judgy stuff. And I just want to be with people who feel evolved as, as who they are and comfortable in their own skin, because I'm pretty comfortable in my skin. But I find that when I'm with people who are not comfortable in their skin, that makes me anxious.

Helen Marie (01:01:43) - Yeah, interesting, isn't it? It's that energy. The energy is in the room, isn't it?

Sarah Milken (01:01:48) - Yeah, yeah. And I want to be with people who feel that way and.

Helen Marie (01:01:53) - That your nervous system picking up on that anxiety. So it's looking for its cues of safety.

Sarah Milken (01:02:00) - And I'm such an empathetic person that I want to be with people who feel safe. Yeah, yeah. And who feel safe with me and like they want to be there and all of those things. I just think it's an interesting time. I think it's a time where you could get yourself really worked up and sad and all the things, but I also think it's a really amazing time of your life, if you can use it for introspection and figuring out what works and what doesn't. I'm here for this. I'm not here for that.

Helen Marie (01:02:31) - And coming to the stage where it's, if I don't make those active choices now or I'm just letting myself down, you know, this is my time to stop making those.

Sarah Milken (01:02:41) - Choices.

Helen Marie (01:02:42) - Making those changes and that kind of self-belief and self-worth. So worth building on those skills around self-esteem, letting go of those negative internal scripts, doing that work so that you can move forward in a way that feels much more enjoyable to you. You don't want to get to another ten years time and think, I just wasted that, or I spent another five, ten years people pleasing, pacifying.

Sarah Milken (01:03:14) - Others.

Helen Marie (01:03:15) - Not knowing what my needs are. We're all different, Sarah.

Sarah Milken (01:03:19) - We're all different. But I think that there's there was another quote in your book where you talk about what we do deserve as human beings, and I kind of took that and skewed it to midlife women. So this is what I wrote. Midlife years deserve to talk to themselves with kindness. Mid lifers deserve to forgive yourself for past mistakes. Midlife years deserve to grow, evolve, bloom. Midlife years deserve to trust yourself. Midlife years deserve to like yourself. Midlife first. Deserve to meet your own needs. Midlife. Deserve to accept yourself. Midlife first. Deserve to be there for yourself. Midlife years deserve to treat yourself like someone you love.

Helen Marie (01:04:02) - Okay, well, that made me emotional. No, it did, because so many women don't know.

Sarah Milken (01:04:10) - And that's why I pulled that out. Because this is the time in life where we're really. you know, at the beginning of it, we're doubting ourselves. We're figuring out what's next, and we feel irrelevant and invisible and trying to find meaning.

Sarah Milken (01:04:26) - And we don't think we deserve certain things because we haven't had them in the past, and we haven't been meeting our own needs. So why should we meet our own needs now? It's this kind of like stew of feelings, and I wanted to pull that out just so that people could hear what midlife women deserve for themselves.

Helen Marie (01:04:46) - I love the way you changed that. I really did love the way you changed that. And it did it really. I had a real reaction to that. I could feel it within me and so much sadness for for those that don't embody those.

Sarah Milken (01:05:00) - Words are so much so. And there's days where, I mean, look, I think generally speaking, I feel like I've. I've really tried in the last 3 or 4 years to really hone in on that and focus on that, because. I sort of was predicting what was coming because I am so attached to my children and so kind of enmeshed with them healthfully, healthily or not. That's a word. But I knew the day was coming where kids were leaving, and they were like, my whole reason for everything.

Sarah Milken (01:05:37) - It's really that.

Helen Marie (01:05:38) - There's a grief and a loss there, isn't there? It's and I think even and I'm really glad you said that, because actually, let's name that. Let's acknowledge that, you know, we've talked about lots of other things today, but we haven't actually talked about there's a real feeling of loss when our children leave. And it it shifts a huge amount for the midlife, a huge amount when.

Sarah Milken (01:06:06) - I consider marriage, it changes the way you feel about yourself. And I think it also. It weirdly makes you think back to your to how you pair, how you got parented, and how you parent your own children. Because in a weird way, you feel like parenting is over because they're out of the house. But it's just bigger kids, bigger problems. So it.

Helen Marie (01:06:31) - Is. But it's up to us whether we treat it as a loss.

Sarah Milken (01:06:35) - Or we treat.

Helen Marie (01:06:36) - It as a new chapter.

Sarah Milken (01:06:39) - I have been really trying to see it as a new chapter, a new season, and really trying not to put it like my.

Sarah Milken (01:06:47) - I have one kid at home and one kid in college, and it's I don't want to put my kind of loneliness and grief of his leaving onto him. No, I know it's not his job to entertain me. It's not his job to give me meaning. It's not his job to figure out what to do with the rest of my life. His job is to be him and to live his life to the fullest. And it's kind of figuring out and renegotiating those boundaries. Yeah, yeah.

Helen Marie (01:07:19) - Hugely in ways that he's not doing.

Sarah Milken (01:07:22) - 100%.

Helen Marie (01:07:24) - Exactly. It's you. It's you that's there having gone, okay, this and it seems to change quite quickly doesn't it.

Sarah Milken (01:07:30) - Yeah.

Helen Marie (01:07:30) - Because because they leave home. So it's, it.

Sarah Milken (01:07:36) - Is.

Helen Marie (01:07:37) - Is quite sudden with that going to college. I mean I said, I said to you before we started recording, my son went to university here and, you know, it's really tough. And my, my daughters had left six months before him. So it all happened very quickly.

Helen Marie (01:07:54) - I was bereft, I broke down, literally broke down. It's a horrible empty feeling. But then you don't stay there, Sarah. You don't stay in that. It's about, how can I shift now with this newness?

Sarah Milken (01:08:12) - Yes. And I also think it's like I was saying on Instagram over the weekend because a lot of, friends of mine, like their kids, were graduating from high school, and I was reliving those feelings from last year of like, oh my God, heartbreak. And one of the things I said, I was like, lean in, cry, do the ugly cry. It's coming. Just do it. And then it's going to come again tomorrow, 3:00 in the afternoon. You don't know what's coming, but it is. And I think we're trying to stay all put together and just think it's going to go away. But it's not. And it's something that we actually have to reprocess in our bodies and our brains.

Helen Marie (01:08:55) - We do and we're letting go. Go of a familiarity are feels alien.

Helen Marie (01:09:01) - That feels scary. We we make up such awful stories about how it's going to go. It's rarely as bad as we think it's going to be. It's rarely as bad, and I think it's about looking. I love the way you say seasons, but it's about about that visualization again. How do you want this season to look? It might take a while to get into it, but how do you want it to look? We can't go back, Sara. We can only go forward.

Sarah Milken (01:09:30) - And the interesting thing is like, so my son came home for two weeks and then went back for summer school and I was like, oh my God, he can't do this to me again. We can't have this coming and going. It's like having a husband who's having an affair and coming back and going, you know what I mean? I'm like, no, no, no, no no no no no. but again, I know.

Helen Marie (01:09:51) - I know.

Sarah Milken (01:09:52) - Oh, it's just taking yourself back to that place and kind of knowing that it's normal to feel this way.

Sarah Milken (01:09:59) - You're not abnormal if you feel lonely when your kids leave. It's just a fact.

Helen Marie (01:10:05) - I mean, as you said it, I thought, I'm so pleased you said it. Because I can hold on to feelings. Like as my son shot the front door last time he was home and I said to my husband, I hate this feeling. You know, he's gone again. You get that beautiful excitement of them coming home and then you're you're dropped again. It's like, this is an empty nest feeling again. It's like on repeat.

Sarah Milken (01:10:31) - I know. And my daughter, my daughter leaves next year. And that's it for me. I think we need to.

Helen Marie (01:10:38) - We need to chat again then.

Sarah Milken (01:10:39) - So I'm going to be like, oh my God, oh my God. And she's so funny. She goes, mom, you're talking about empty nest over the weekend on social media. I'm still here. And I go, I'm sorry. I usually I call it half empty nest. Oh yeah. Yeah, I know I didn't call it half empty nest.

Sarah Milken (01:10:57) - I called it Empty Nest. But she was like, I'm so here. I'm like, I know I'm here. And it's just a general term. It wasn't that you're not here. No, I know it's I know like. And then I wanted this hitter. I thought you didn't really give a shit what I was doing, but I guess you do. I guess you do. It's so bad, so true.

Helen Marie (01:11:18) - You can't get it right, can you? You can't get it removed.

Sarah Milken (01:11:21) - Oh, now, one last thing before we wrap up. Look, social comparison on social media. In real life, it's a real thing. We're not going to deny it. But you talk about something in the book that I've talked about on my podcast, on my Instagram before, and I think it's worth mentioning again, as women are trying to come up with kind of whatever next thing they're going to be doing in their lives is how to use. Comparison for inspiration rather than triggering. So, Helen, starting a podcast.

Sarah Milken (01:11:57) - I'm a friend of hers. I'm feeling a little bit triggered that she's starting a podcast, and I've always kind of wanted to do it, and I just haven't done it yet. How do I go from being pissed off, angry and jealous to shit? I'm gonna I'm going to do that now.

Helen Marie (01:12:16) - Okay, so first thing first, acknowledge the pissed off, jealous angry bit. Because there's so much information in there. So sit with it, acknowledge it. What's it saying there? I mean, the first chapter in the book, I talk about emotions. There's so much information in the emotions. Don't suppress it. Listen to what it's trying to say. There's an energy in our emotions. If we connect with it, let's use it as a driving force. But then what I would also say is funny. I do love the example you've given. It has made me chuckle.

Sarah Milken (01:12:52) - But.

Helen Marie (01:12:52) - I.

Sarah Milken (01:12:53) - Think because you know it's happening. It's not there going, oh yeah.

Helen Marie (01:12:58) - Okay, maybe you're right.

Helen Marie (01:13:00) - But then I would always say. If she can. Why not? Me too? So that always why not me too? But also caveat it with do I really want to too? Because so often we think we do, but if we did, we would have done it. So what's been holding you back? If it's confidence. Let's look at that confidence. Let's work on that. Let's do the deep self honesty the deep conversations with self. Where's my confidence gone. Why do I think I can't do this. Keep asking the right questions. But I would always say why. If she can do it, why not me too?

Sarah Milken (01:13:49) - And then. And then it's the whole journey of how to get out of your own way. Yes, I've got a good.

Helen Marie (01:13:55) - I've got a good podcast on that coming.

Sarah Milken (01:13:57) - Up. Oh you do. Oh I can't wait. Yeah. Okay. One piece of advice for midlife women who are trying to figure out what's next. my mind is going. I know, take a deep breath.

Sarah Milken (01:14:19) - I think.

Helen Marie (01:14:21) - So. One piece of advice. I would. I mean, there's lots I want to say, which wouldn't surprise you, but I think if you break it down really simply, I would say your life matters to.

Sarah Milken (01:14:40) - Beautiful. And let that.

Helen Marie (01:14:44) - Permeate.

Sarah Milken (01:14:46) - That's so good. It's true. We all want to matter at the end of the day, just like we said at the beginning of the podcast, we all want to feel seen and heard. That's it. Whether it's be and I think when you're a mom you feel I mean sometimes you don't feel seen, but you do feel seen in some way because you have a very specific role. But then when that role starts to kind of the lines start blurring and start, then you start feeling like you're disappearing, even though you didn't necessarily want to be making the lunch every day gave you something to define yourself with to a certain extent. or if you were a working mom, it's like the grass is always greener. If you were working, mom, you wanted to be home.

Sarah Milken (01:15:29) - If you're home, you wanted to be at work. And it's all about that kind of give and take and all the things that come with that.

Helen Marie (01:15:36) - And yeah, and I would also say, because I have got the luxury of my children have. Come through the other side now. They've done their bit of detachment from me, their independence. If you do it right, let's not have a conversation about what right is now. But if we do it right. They come back.

Sarah Milken (01:16:01) - Not to live with you.

Helen Marie (01:16:03) - No. They come back because they need you. Oh, listen to that. You go.

Sarah Milken (01:16:07) - With me. You live like nobody's living in the basement. Nobody's coming back like I've done it, right? If they're in their own apartment. no judgment, but yeah.

Helen Marie (01:16:20) - You know what I mean. They come back to you in a beautiful way. So it's about holding space or keeping space open for them to want to.

Sarah Milken (01:16:31) - 100%. I agree with that. I'm so thankful that I've had this time with you and that you're a real human being and not just quotes on Instagram, and that you have a beautiful book.

Sarah Milken (01:16:43) - And I'm so excited for your podcast. I love your accent. I feel like I could listen to you. I don't I'm not a big meditator, but I feel like you would have a really good meditation voice. I'd probably be in some, like, hypnotic state somewhere.

Helen Marie (01:16:59) - Oh, Sarah, it's just been honestly so gorgeous to chat with you.

Sarah Milken (01:17:03) - I so good. Now, where can everyone find you?

Helen Marie (01:17:09) - Or mainly Instagram. So I'm at Helen Murray, but it's those dots between every letter.

Sarah Milken (01:17:16) - It's I know there's periods in between every letter of Helen.

Helen Marie (01:17:20) - So h e dot just because there's lots of other Helen Morrison I.

Sarah Milken (01:17:24) - Know I get it, I made that mistake. I totally get it. And your new book.

Helen Marie (01:17:32) - Choose you.

Sarah Milken (01:17:34) - Where can we find that?

Helen Marie (01:17:35) - Everywhere at the moment. You will need to order through Blackwells, who ship internationally from the UK. I'm just waiting to hear more from my publisher about it being in the US. So at the moment, Blackwell's. I've linked it in my bio.

Helen Marie (01:17:52) - They ship internationally and the cost of shipping is included in the price of the book.

Sarah Milken (01:17:58) - Oh, okay. We'll put that in the show notes. Thank you. And your podcast comes out Thursday. So that will be on all podcast platforms.

Helen Marie (01:18:07) - Yes. Spotify, Apple and on YouTube. And that's I don't think we talk enough about okay.

Sarah Milken (01:18:14) - So you're going to have video. It's going to be videoed on YouTube. Great. And TikTok.

Helen Marie (01:18:21) - Not really.

Sarah Milken (01:18:22) - I'm growing it.

Helen Marie (01:18:23) - I need to.

Sarah Milken (01:18:24) - I'm pushing attack.

Helen Marie (01:18:27) - There's a lot of noise, isn't it?

Sarah Milken (01:18:28) - I know, and I feel like what you do on Instagram doesn't necessarily work on TikTok. And so then I'm like, oh my God, this is too many projects. I can I can barely do my own. I agree, I agree, I think.

Helen Marie (01:18:39) - You have to pick the things that you enjoy doing. We can't spread ourselves too thinly. So I might put some of the podcasts on TikTok, but I'm not promising, right?

Sarah Milken (01:18:50) - Exactly, I got it.

Sarah Milken (01:18:51) - I've loved chatting with you. Thank you for being a new friend. Thank you for being a new friend of the podcast. Can't wait for this to come out and for everyone to just find you and soak you up. And thank you, thank you, thank you. Enjoy your dinner in the UK. I'm going to go back to the coffee that I didn't finish this morning. I'm going to re microwave it. Oh yeah. No I'm good. I'm looking forward to my other half of my coffee drink right now okay. I love chatting with you and I'll talk to you soon. Thank you sir. Into this episode with registered psychotherapist, podcaster, and author of Choose You Gentle Words to help you Heal and Grow. Helen Marie so that I could summarize the golden nuggets for you to have actionable items to start using today. I know that when I listen to a long episode, I'm like, oh my God, I love that. But then I can't even fucking remember what the specifics are. This is why I come back and do a golden nugget summary for the midlife brain.

Sarah Milken (01:19:53) - In this episode, we dig deep with our golden shovels in a conversation about self-help, but actually way more than self-help inner work and choosing you to in midlife. Golden nugget number one finding yourself when you are lost. Okay, let's face it, it's easy to get lost in life. From marriage to motherhood to carpool to careers, it's easy to be thinking, wait, where am I? Am I invisible? I know that I have felt that way before, and I still feel that way. And I'm sure you have to. Listening to Helen was so comforting, because it's a great reminder that I'm not the only one in this relatability, people, Helen explains that many go through the experience of feeling distant from themselves, or lost from the version of themselves that they once knew. Luckily, we don't have to stay lost forever, and there are steps that we can take on the journey to find and reconnect with ourselves and our inner voice. It's just the work. The inner work, as she calls it.

Sarah Milken (01:20:56) - Helen says it. Finding your inner voice can happen through a series of questions or questions that you can find in her book, and you can process them in your own time. Her book is amazing. Give yourself time each day. Grab a pen, a cup of coffee and really dive into it. It's very meaningful as you go through the questions, really listen to the way that your body and your mind is responding. Is there resistance in your answers? Is there openness the way we react to questions has so much information for us to take into consideration. This is the inner voice. Golden nugget number two getting unstuck. I mean, honestly, isn't that like half the midlife journey battle? This one is so good because I know that feeling stuck and have a huge effect on us all, especially with the hormones and all the midlife saga going on in brain, heart, body and mind. Helen says that the biggest key to getting unstuck is deep self honesty. Yep, honesty with yourself. It sounds easier than it is, she says.

Sarah Milken (01:22:03) - To imagine yourself as the seed that you want to grow, and all the things that it will take for that to happen water, sunlight, consistency. I'm not a gardener, but I sure see that analogy. Imagine yourself as this seed and know that there is more to life than just being a seed. Think about how different things will be once you bloom our water and sunlight can be talking to friends or people that we trust. It can be listening to podcasts or reading books about self-help and development and prioritizing ourselves. Remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. It sounds simple, but it's so true. Something else that Helen suggested that I loved is the movie method. Ask yourself a question like where do I want to be in five years? Or even where do I want to be next month? Or what do I want to do after my midlife nap? You know, the midlife nap is one of my favorite things. Then sit back, relax, and run the movie in your head. This allows us to see what is possible in a way that is just more a little more detached, where we can allow for more possibility to take place within the story.

Sarah Milken (01:23:14) - If you have no idea where to start with this, think about your role models. Who's around you? Who are you inspired by? What brings you joy? What is something that gets you up in the morning? Just sit with it and let your brain wander. There's no right answers and your answers can change all the time. That's the beauty of self evolution. Golden nugget number three choose yourself. Choose yourself to. It's not selfish. Midlife self-obsession is approved. As you know. I always say in a world of don't cry, you'll be fine. It's so easy and tempting to mask your feelings, hide and keep your emotions to yourself. On top of that, we live in a society where we are told that it's selfish to choose ourselves, especially when we have a family to take care of. Think of yourself as a friend because we were always advising our friends to choose themselves, take care of themselves, and prioritize themselves. But why not us? If you're worried that choosing yourself means that you're not choosing your children or your spouse, you're wrong.

Sarah Milken (01:24:20) - Helen tells us that the ripple effect of choosing yourself has an amazing impact on your children. And your spouse because it shows them that they can and should do the same. It's leading by example. Golden nugget number four. Coming home to yourself and repair and coming home to yourself is all about recognizing what's for you and what is not for you. And this will be different for everyone. There is no universal coming home equation. Coming home is about living a life that is authentic to you. Are you living in accordance with your values? What are your values? Have your values changed over time? What are they right now? As a midlife woman, it's about creating a life around the people that you feel the most safe around. It's about living a life with a deep connection to yourself and not agreeing or disagreeing with something just because it matches with what other people are doing and thinking. This sounds amazing, right? So if you're trying to get here and it feels hard, just know that that's normal.

Sarah Milken (01:25:26) - Helen says. This hard work, this is hard work. Helen says this is hard work and it's not easy. But when you get there, it's a really wonderful feeling and you feel relaxed and at ease and with yourself. And then sometimes it feels uneasy again and then we go through the same thing. Change is part of life. We have to get comfortable in the uncomfortable when it gets hard. Remember your re parenting practice, which Helen says is all about giving yourself the love, attention, and care that you may be lacking or looking for from others. Repairing yourself is about meeting your own needs and listening to yourself. Okay, midlife or so choosing you to is not selfish. The gold is dripping off these nuggets. Grab it, use it. There are three things you can do. First, subscribe to the podcast. Second, share it with some friends who might like midlife shit. And third, write an Apple review. Writing reviews is kind of annoying. It's an extra step, but guess what? It really helps the podcast grow.

Sarah Milken (01:26:33) - You think your little review won't matter, but it does. DM me. You know. I always respond and of course follow me on the flexible neurotic on Instagram. Love you talk soon.