Five Golden Nuggets of Midlife

Cathy Heller (00:00:00) - Maybe, just maybe, at this point, if you come to the table, as you would say, with your truth and authenticity and with the willingness to open up to a greater possibility, maybe you can make it so much better.

Sarah Milken (00:00:19) - Hey peeps, welcome to the Flexible Neurotic Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Milken. Yeah, you heard that right. I'm a real PhD doctor. Long, long ago, like last fucking year, I was sitting in the midlife funk wondering, was this it for me? That day, I realized I needed to get off my ass and start my midlife remix. I dusted off my PhD, wiped the menopause sweat off my forehead, grabbed my golden shovel, and started digging deep to all my midlife bitches. It's not just luck, coffee, and hormones that get you through your midlife remix. It's action steps. Let's do this. Hi peeps, it's me, Dr. Sarah Milken, and this is the Flexible Neurotic Podcast. This episode was done a little differently, as this is actually a live podcast recording on a zoom full of live people with a top ranking podcast host, business and spiritual coach, and bestselling author Kathy Heller.

Sarah Milken (00:01:21) - We talked about the importance of friendships and finding purpose in midlife. Kathy shares her insights on personal growth, authenticity, and finding peace of mind. We discuss the significance of surrounding oneself with positive influences and the value of creative outlets, and emphasize the need for accountability, planning, and prioritizing activities that bring full fulfillment in midlife. I just want to let you guys know that this episode was recorded before October 7th. Otherwise, as Jewish women, Kathy and I would have talked about all the atrocities that are going on in the world as it relates to human suffering. Jews, all of it is real. I mean, the list goes on and on. The fucking Twilight Zone. I'm still struggling to figure out how to release content that is not related to Israel. But every time I stop and I think about it, I think, you know what? We all need a break from the wear and tear of antisemitism, hatred, fear and terror that is bombarding our hearts and our brains all day long. And sometimes it's a nice break to hear things that are just related to women, midlife and what's going on.

Sarah Milken (00:02:38) - Yep, I'm still worried about my kids and not wearing Jewish star necklaces. I can't even believe that I have to talk about things like this. It just doesn't seem possible in 2023. But I hope you guys enjoy this episode as much as I did. And as much as all of the live listeners of the live podcast did. Let's go. Let's get into the episode, you guys. I'm so excited you're all here. I mean, you probably know from my Instagram that Kathy Heller is one of my favorite fucking people. So yesterday, the day before, I was like, do you want to come on and we'll invite a bunch of people? And she was like, duh, sure. This woman's like number one podcast in spiritual. She's all woo woo, all business. She's like the perfect combination of sass and woo and wisdom and business entrepreneurship and all those things. She has an amazing podcast. I've probably listened to almost every episode. I have to say we had a very interesting way of meeting.

Sarah Milken (00:03:41) - I'll let Kathy tell you about that. And today we're going to pull back the curtain on midlife. We're with a bunch of midlife hotties. Imagine worth this beautiful virtual table right here. I'm the worst Pinterest wife. I don't even know how to set the table properly. And I have to go to Google every time to figure out where the fucking forks go on the knives go, and the napkins and all the things. I'm definitely not the hostess with the mostess, but I know how to order food. Reheating is tricky for me. I'll be honest, reheating scares me a little bit, but my husband, my husband is kind of good at that, so he's in charge of reheating. I'm in charge of ordering, so we all have our skill sets. I'm so happy you guys are here to meet Kathy Heller. As close to in person as we can get today. We're just going to spend the hour shooting the shit, talking about what's next for us in midlife, talking about the importance of our midlife table and going forward in our lives.

Sarah Milken (00:04:49) - We're going to talk about Kathy's kids. We're going to talk about my kids. We're going to talk about your kids. We're going to get really into it and open the curtain with my sweaty armpits. Kathy, thank you so much for coming. I love our zoom. Earlier today, I mean, people were like, oh my God, you guys are so funny. And I was like, oh really? You wanted to hear about my husband's retainer? He called me from the airport and he was like, how was. Is your zoom with Cathy? And I was like, well, we talked about your retainer and we talked about how the Rogaine is dripping off your hair at night onto your forehead and how you get into bed with your retainer and your dripping Rogaine and how alluring that it's. Yes. Um, that was a really fun conversation. If you missed it, it's on Instagram. You can really catch up on all of this high level, really cool nonsense that we talked about. But it was fun.

Sarah Milken (00:05:46) - Nonsense. Good nonsense. Right? Sometimes you have to break up the day of the hamster wheel like the same fucking hamster wheel that we're on every single day, and we're here to mix it up. So let's go, Kathy, tell everyone how we met.

Cathy Heller (00:06:01) - My cheeks hurt. You're so cute. And. Oh. We met because Sarah makes me look cool in front of my children. We were at the Brentwood Country Mart, which is like the cutest little place, and my kids were getting a snack, and I was sitting with them after school, and this gorgeous woman walks over and she's like, I know you. You host a podcast. And I was like, oh, it's happening. My kids, they're gonna think I'm somebody. And I was like, yeah, that's so cool. You came over and then she said, are these your kids? I said, yeah, she goes, where do they go to school? And I told her and she's like, oh my gosh, no, it well, totally involved with your kids school.

Cathy Heller (00:06:47) - And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so funny. And then I said, do you want to come for Shabbat? And and she was like, yes. And I thought you would not say yes. But there was something like in because she is who she is, it was like, you become friends immediately. It's sort of like when you have instant oatmeal and all you have to do is add water, which is my favorite kind of every day. Yeah, you're like at it. So it was like as soon as we met, it was like instant friend, instant coffee, instant. So I was like, do you want to come? And she was like, yep. And then she was like, I hope it's cool. Like my husband's actually away, but I'm coming. And I'm like, come. And then she's like, I'm.

Sarah Milken (00:07:23) - Only gonna have 16 people that you don't know, and you can just sit at the table. And it was like you.

Cathy Heller (00:07:29) - Were the cutest person.

Cathy Heller (00:07:30) - And then we just instantly started talking all the time, and you were like, I have this podcast and I've been listening to you, and your podcast had so much to do with, like, why I like, leaned all the way in. I was like, that's so cool. And I loved right away your whole vibe because I said, how do I find you on Instagram? You're like, it's the flexible, neurotic. I'm like, that's adorable, I love you, I know I want to be your friend because I'm like, fucking crazy. Yeah. No, it was so good. So. So that's how we met. And that was I can't even believe that. That's already now, over a year ago, I know.

Sarah Milken (00:08:04) - And her husband's name is Lowell, which is like an interesting name. And my father in law's name is Lowell. I don't know anyone whose name is Lowell.

Cathy Heller (00:08:13) - And also when I told her where we lived, she's like, oh, my husband grew up on that street.

Cathy Heller (00:08:20) - His dad lives near you. I'm like, what?

Sarah Milken (00:08:22) - On that street?

Cathy Heller (00:08:23) - On that street, a lot of in common.

Sarah Milken (00:08:26) - So we're happy to be here. This is how we became friends. I do want to point out, though, you guys, I know I probably talked about this in the three day workshop. I talked about how sometimes you just have to like put yourself in awkward situations, new situations, and like, shit happens and it doesn't mean every time. But I live in LA. I see celebrities all the time. I don't like walk up to them and talk to them. But I was like, Kathy Heller, that's like an interesting one. Like I listen to her podcast all the time. I'm like, I'm waiting for my Frida's Mexican food. I can either say hi to her or pretend that she's invisible. All. And I was just like, fuck it, I'm going to say hi. And so my point is, put yourself out there, say the hi, because shit happens, you meet people and.

Cathy Heller (00:09:14) - There's a universe where you talk about seeing celebrities, and then somehow I'm included in this conversation like, you are hysterical.

Sarah Milken (00:09:21) - You have imposter syndrome.

Cathy Heller (00:09:23) - You're right, you're right. It must just be my own respective on that one. But no, I'm that way. Like I been in LA for 20 years and like, my ObGyn is the same ObGyn as Pink and Kim Kardashian and we were pregnant at the same time with our daughters and like, never would I say hello. It was like never, never comes out of my mouth like, hi, no, my sister's the one who walks over. She walked over David Schwimmer years ago. She was like, oh my God, you're David Schwimmer. And he's like, correct. And she was like, why are you acting weird? Like, I'm actually a Matthew Perry fan. That's what she said. That's a real conversation. And I'm like, you said it to his face. She's like, yeah, because he was acting all like important and like, I'm not.

Cathy Heller (00:10:08) - I was like a Chandler fan. I was like, and you told him that? Yeah. At least.

Sarah Milken (00:10:12) - At least I had your name, right. I kind of, like, showed your kids that you were like a celebrity and that person knew who you are.

Cathy Heller (00:10:20) - Love, feel.

Sarah Milken (00:10:21) - So it was so good.

Cathy Heller (00:10:22) - Significant.

Sarah Milken (00:10:23) - So, Kathy, tell us five things. Just as like an icebreaker, even though we don't need an icebreaker because you're just Kathy, tell us five things you can't live without.

Cathy Heller (00:10:33) - Oh my gosh, five things I can't live without. Um, friends like you. Honestly, friends that can just be like, here's everything that's hard and here's everything I'm excited about. Um, what else? I need to have a blow dry. Honestly, like, I planned my life around the blow dry, and I, I do. That's important. Once the hair is blown out.

Sarah Milken (00:10:57) - You can do anything mean this morning you were like, in the world alive. I'm like, I can't do alive.

Sarah Milken (00:11:02) - I'm getting a blow dry.

Cathy Heller (00:11:04) - So there's that. Um, I will say like Shabbat dinner, I start. So I grew up totally secular without any kind of spirituality or connection to God or anything. And then I went to Jerusalem and drank the Kool-Aid and just really fell in love with having that spiritual practice. And that is that is a constant in my life. And it is so nice because you stop and you are just with, with the moment, as opposed to thinking about what's on the to do list or where you're falling short or what else has to be done. It's just like, oh, here I am, here I am in my life in this moment, this, this, this in and of itself is a moment that I wanted to have happen. And here it is. And with whatever's here, I get to just be here. So that's an amazing thing. That's three things, two more things. A good book I tend to read like 1 or 2 books a week. I don't watch TV, so I read books.

Cathy Heller (00:11:59) - I know you don't watch TV either.

Sarah Milken (00:12:00) - Any of my friends on here know that.

Cathy Heller (00:12:03) - So if I have a good book, I feel like I'm growing and I'm like kind of into like learning new things. And the fifth thing is music, because music is therapy for me. I mean, the music is always being blasted in the car, and in three minutes I'm transported somewhere else.

Sarah Milken (00:12:22) - And everyone I don't know if everyone knows this, but is a songwriter musician, the whole thing like, yes.

Cathy Heller (00:12:28) - I used to do that full time, which is hard to believe now. It's amazing how we can keep pivoting and keep finding new. Like whole new, like world.

Sarah Milken (00:12:40) - Seven years ago, you were a music writer.

Cathy Heller (00:12:43) - Yeah, that's what I did full time for a decade.

Sarah Milken (00:12:46) - And now you're like a podcaster, a thought leader. You have books like. And that's part of the reason I wanted to have her come on here. It's just to show like that in such a short period of time.

Sarah Milken (00:12:59) - Like, you can really pivot your life in a completely different direction. And it's not like you can go to school to be a podcaster. I mean, actually, you could sign up for Kathy Heller's course, It's Time to Podcast, but you did this all yourself with an idea that's.

Cathy Heller (00:13:13) - Fascinating, right? Because I already had a totally different career and a totally different, like, orientation and identity and the way that I related to things. And then 40 was like a whole other paradigm opened up. So it really goes to show that, like, there's so much left to be written. If you would have said to me when I was 35 that by the time I was 40, I'd be making millions of dollars doing something I didn't even know existed then. I didn't know what podcasting was. When I was 35, I didn't listen to any podcast then. I didn't have a coach I didn't like. Coaches like you just get led to things. It's fascinating. If you are available to be open to where you're being called, it's amazing the whispers and the clues and then and then wow.

Cathy Heller (00:14:05) - I mean, how much more growth is ahead and how much more you can evolve as a person. And, and the the way that I've grown from having a podcast, I've had 820 hours. Right. Because we've done like 820 episodes where I've sat one on one with Deepak Chopra, Adam Grant, Seth Godin, Marianne Williamson, like Matthew McConaughey, name the person, name, name a person who wrote a book. Name a person I've had like a PhD. Like how many PhDs do you. Does it take to consume that much knowledge? So I just I feel like a sponge and it's amazing. Like, that's why I say read a book every week, because that's essentially what I've had to do is read 1 or 2 books to keep up and. You just can't. You can't believe what you're capable of when you grow this. It's just amazing.

Sarah Milken (00:15:00) - So when you when, whenever you get to the next thing in your business or a next new thing in your journey and it feels really hard, like how do you get yourself out of that space of because I know, I mean, I struggle with it too.

Sarah Milken (00:15:16) - All of us do is this feels really hard. This this feels like I'm not going to get through this or what if I fail? Or what if other people see me fail? Like what? What are your strategies for, like just getting to that next thing? Yeah.

Cathy Heller (00:15:31) - So this is where I'm either the most helpful person or the least helpful person because. I totally understand that because I've worked now with thousands and thousands and thousands of people, and this is where people hang out. And I am so much the unlock for people in that for whatever the reason I become like that, that secret sauce that helps the unlock. And for me, the way that I am wired, I don't hang out in that place ever. And I, I, I have the complete opposite response when I think something's hard, I'm like, cool. It's sort of like a rebellion. It's sort of like, I don't need to be perfect. So let's go. It's sort of like the world. It's kind of like knowing, you know what, the bath.

Cathy Heller (00:16:26) - At the bath, I put two words together. I was about to say at the back of the math textbook. There's like the odd answers, usually. Sometimes they give you the answers to some of the problems. I feel like I've gotten to the back of the book and I read the answer, which is no one cares. And I know that. And I'm not saying I know it and I don't. I know that because I went to Jerusalem, which isn't the typical like route to LA, I went there before I came here, and when I went there, I read the answers in the back of the book, which is all people want is your presence and authenticity because you are the mic drop your energy. You love people into life when you are filled with this feeling of flow and ease. And so I was like, nobody cares. Like when I started songwriting, I was a very mediocre songwriter and I was like, all right, well, the only way to get better is to write a bunch of mediocre songs until they get better.

Cathy Heller (00:17:28) - And there was a part of me that was like, this is embarrassing. You're going into writer's rooms with people who are bigger than you in this field. Why are you even here? Yes, I did think that. And then I was like, so what? So what? Like, am I going to let fear get in the way? I'm always going to be uncomfortable when I'm starting something new, of course. And then I would think, but I could be generous in that room. I could always be the person, and I always tend to be the person, or people are like, I like being around you make me feel at ease or you're so complimentary you really see me, you really get me. And then I'm like, oh, that makes the writing session better. Or whatever it was. It was like, I started the podcast and I knew that successful people or not successful people or whatever, they were on the on the continuum of life, I knew that what people really wanted was to feel just seen and loved and enjoyed and liked.

Cathy Heller (00:18:16) - And I don't have to be impressive. You're impressive. So I don't know, I just sort of, um, I was a C student, and it's interesting because I asked Jason Mraz a similar question, and he had that answer, too. He's like, I was a C student. That was helpful because I wasn't even trying to get the A. I was nowhere close, so I didn't create habits where I was achieving and getting rewarded for achieving. I was just kind of learning how to be charming, I guess, or I don't know, I couldn't compete with that. So it just I'm not disciplined like that and I kind of take issue with it. And you know, that I get in trouble for that with talking about that with kids in school, like I want to school every adult that I've ever made met like you.

Sarah Milken (00:19:02) - And Ken Robinson.

Cathy Heller (00:19:03) - Yeah, I do think it sucks. I think the amount of fear and inhibition, it's too much. And and I think there's so much beauty when you go in, when you go into a preschool classroom, you know, you see kids with sand up their nose and paint in their hair because they're willing to be messy.

Cathy Heller (00:19:20) - And then that's where all the most brilliant things happen. When you play and you're spontaneous and you're alive. And also have to give credit to my mom because my mom, my mom's bipolar, so she's got a lot going on, but she wanted me to be creative, and so she would tell me to stay up until 1230 at night and watch The Honeymooners. And then she would let me eat, you know, Froot Loops for dinner. And she would, I don't know, she would encourage me to be creative. So I was always doing like painting class or music lessons or something or theater. And I always knew that that's what matters now. That stuff is what matters. And your your ability to read a room is what matters. And so because I really know that and I know how much garbage is out there and how people walk in the room with impressive resumes, but there's nothing impressive about their vibe. I was just always like, yeah, I read the back of the book and we don't need that.

Cathy Heller (00:20:12) - And so let's just go. And people are so thirsty for real people that if you can be real and kind and vulnerable and self-deprecating and helpful and make a space for someone else, you always win.

Sarah Milken (00:20:30) - See, I think I came from a totally different background because my parents weren't the kind of people who are like, you have to get these grades, but I. Was because I went to a really hard high school and everyone was like, up here, and I felt like I had to do that. And then everyone at that high school went to really good colleges. So then I felt like I had to do that. So for me, it was always about doing things and doing them well for external validation. So then after deciding to be a stay at home mom with the PhD, I was like, oh my God. And so when I came back to okay, I got to find something to do that's outside of my kids and my husband. I was 45. Yeah. And I was like, okay, I've been a stay at home mom for 16 years.

Sarah Milken (00:21:14) - Like, how am I going to, like, start something from scratch and not have that external validation of like being at the top? Like, how do you start something brand new and be a beginner? And I think there's so many women in this space, in this age group who want to do new things but fear it, because there is that fear of judgment and external judgment and who's watching? And the carpool moms and Instagram and comments and all of that. And it's finding a way to kind of put your own blinders on and doing you and what feels good for you.

Cathy Heller (00:21:48) - Yeah. I mean, I was in seventh grade once and the girls were really mean to me. And so I know what that feels like to want to belong. And I also had a dad who was really angry and violent and then left, and I really wanted his approval every time I would see him, if I saw him, I wanted him to come back home. I wanted I know what it's like to. Feel rejection and pain and want people to to to vote for you and subscribe to you.

Cathy Heller (00:22:19) - I get what that's like. And also, um, I think because I went through like the ultimate feeling of rejection, because my dad did leave and I didn't hear from him for ten years. So that was like a pretty significant abandonment. I didn't even take it. I mean, I kind of took it like she was saying it at face value, but I also knew she she didn't have the capacity to wake herself up and get out of bed. And, and I, you know, I don't really think she wants anything but the best for me. But I think those things definitely play a role in why I'm not going to lose sleep over six people online who want to comment about me. And my friend Susie Moore says it really well, which is it's not a problem that people don't like you. It's only a problem that you think they should, because every one of us can think of people that are not your cup of tea. And I guess. Again, you know, just zooming out, living in Jerusalem for three years and meditating and meeting the sweetest, holiest, most, most tuned in people I've ever met in my life, which are the people that, you know, I lived with and learned with Rabbi Aaron and his family.

Cathy Heller (00:23:37) - I mean, I guess I zoomed out and just felt like people are in their own, their own projection all the time. They're only seeing what they're willing to see based on their own past and their own context. And so we're making all this meaning out of somebodys projection and. It has so little to do with us. And even if it is really about us, there's billions of people in this world. Like, where did we ever get the thought in our head that our job is to get everyone on board? Like there's plenty of people who are not? For me, there's plenty of people who I would like kind of meet and go. Don't think so. Like, I don't need to convince you. You don't need to convince me. Right.

Sarah Milken (00:24:19) - And now you have three daughters, so you have to teach them that they're not always going to be the chosen ones. And you're they're not always going to like other people.

Cathy Heller (00:24:29) - Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Milken (00:24:31) - And it's a tough lesson.

Cathy Heller (00:24:33) - Yeah, it's kind of amazing, though, how people are just so in their own thing.

Cathy Heller (00:24:38) - And the truth of the matter is that while I've been kind of building a life and a business and becoming a mom, I've been on this like very deep meditation journey and practicing meditation for all these years. And that is really the best, because as soon as you meditate, you it's not that you're it's not that you're trying to make your thoughts go away. That's not the point of meditation. It's. It's how you relate to your thoughts that you change. And what that means is you go, oh, that's interesting. Like there's a lot of fake news in there. And that's really helpful because you distance yourself from this constant program that is mostly garbage. And then you become the witness to that and you go, that's interesting, okay. That's there. And then you don't have to make such a reaction out of everything. You can come back to center and you don't need to. You don't need to assign your well-being to everything outside of you liking you, approving of you. You get your well-being from finding peace of mind.

Cathy Heller (00:25:46) - If I didn't have, especially coming out of the crazy that was growing up in my house, if I didn't have a spiritual practice and a meditation practice, I'd be such a different person. I mean, I think every single person I've ever interviewed, they have that kind of a practice.

Sarah Milken (00:26:04) - Because what is your daily practice? Like? If there's people here and we're listening and we're like, I want to have I want to drink that Kool-Aid. I know you're a big Joe Dispenza fan you just went to, and he's a friend of yours, and you just went to a week long retreat. Like, what are like the nuggets for us of things that we can do on the daily if meditation isn't already part of our routine?

Cathy Heller (00:26:27) - Yeah. I just went to Vail and meditated with him for six days, which was really amazing. When I say we're friends, but I think we've hung out a few times. Um, yeah. My practice is so within 4 seconds or 5 seconds of waking up, I notice the program right away.

Cathy Heller (00:26:47) - Like, I'll wake up, you know, you wake up and you're like, oh, right, what time? Okay. And then like right away, it's like you remember your problems. It's like right away you're like, oh, right, this is what's up. This is what I'm dealing. Right. So what I do is I go, here comes and then I notice it and I'm like, all right, well, that's Groundhog Day. That's a software program that's been running and running. And it's it's not what it is. It's just it's just one way of looking at things. And so then I go, all right, how do I want to approach this day? What's the highest vibe I can reach for? That's real, that's visceral. And then I'll be like, you know what? I'm excited to go drink a cup of coffee, so I'll go downstairs and then I'll usually meditate for like 20 or 25 minutes. And when I'm meditating, what I'm doing is. I am noticing where I am in space, meaning like where is my energy because all I am is energy.

Cathy Heller (00:27:46) - Really? We live in an atomic world, right? Everything's made of atoms, everything's energy. And then I'll just kind of notice. Where am I in relation to the infinite field of all things? And then I'm like, oh, there I am, and we can see it now on a, you know, on, on screen we can take pictures of our energy. Our energy is really more like a beach ball. It's like a sphere. So then I'll check in with that and I'll just have this awareness like, oh yeah, Kathy Heller is really that. It's not really just this personality that's in my head that tells me, you know what's good, what's bad, where I'm afraid that's just the limited sort of like in my amygdala, like my program of protection. Really, what I am is this, like, force field that, like, extends out here and it enters the room before I do. And so I'll just think about opening my heart and I'll think about connecting this part.

Cathy Heller (00:28:36) - You know, the sphere which is the the Kabbalistic approach is the same energy centers as the chakras. They're all the same. It's it's fascinating that they're literally all the same, and they're called all the same things, except they're from thousands of years ago and nobody had zoom. Nobody was on a zoom call. Like, how did the Hindus and the Jews have the exact same code? And this is carbon dated. You see these written documents from thousands of years ago, and they're saying the same thing as if it's like it's because it's because it's the truth, because there are these like energy lines and whatever. And so I then think about it, think about all these parts of me that literally I can tune in and turn them on and I can feel it. It's like Kundalini yoga. It's like I can feel myself waking up. This part of me that's so much bigger than this fucking brain. And the story in my mind, it's bigger than that. And then when I do that, I start to feel flow.

Cathy Heller (00:29:29) - That's what flow is. You start to feel yourself move beyond this box of this dumb program, and you feel so excited and in love with life, and then you feel your life force, like in all of these chakras and all of these points and you're like, ready. You're so ready and you're excited. And that's where you actually 3D print your whole life from that place. You print your whole life because everything is energy creates matter. So when you're literally charged and awake like that, you're like Elsa turning things into fractals of ice. Like that's how you create, because from there you get a good idea. From there you walk in a room and of course, good stuff's going to happen because somebody goes, who was that person? Because you're not coming from separation and lack and neediness and attachment. You're just a being and you're there. Which is why my husband's like the real gift you have is making friends, because you get on 800 episodes and then 15 things happen with each of those people because they love being with you.

Cathy Heller (00:30:35) - And I'm like, yeah, because I don't need them to like me. And because I don't see us as separate and because I just feel connected and in love with life, I can be generous. I can give them life. So that's my morning practice. It's pretty good. You can feel it. It works for me. Um.

Sarah Milken (00:30:51) - That sounds really.

Cathy Heller (00:30:52) - Start my day. It's 20 minutes.

Sarah Milken (00:30:54) - I'm like, oh my God, 20 minutes. I'm like, already into my third nap. Oh my God. But in terms of all the things that you've learned in the seven years of coaching in your platform and three years in, you know, in Israel, how do you think your friendships now at this age are different from how they used to be? And were you comment on like how you see the importance of friendship at this time in our lives? Oh my God.

Cathy Heller (00:31:25) - It's so important. And I was telling you this, and we said it earlier that I just interviewed Jennifer Wallace, who wrote this book called.

Cathy Heller (00:31:31) - Never enough. And it's all about the disease of toxic, overachieving achievement. And she said that in her research, and she used to work for 60 minutes, and she loves doing tons of deep dive research. And she said the the antidote is having 1 or 2 female friendships that really are so nourishing where you feel that you matter and then you no longer keep feeling never enough, and you no longer keep unconsciously chasing more achievement because you feel you matter to at least 1 or 2 women friends in your life. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. And she said, just you having that in your life will mean that your own children are less at risk for anxiety. That's literally her research.

Sarah Milken (00:32:14) - Yeah, I love her too. And she's going to come on my podcast too. And I think, I mean, look, the bottom line is the research shows that the most important thing in the world is to know that you matter. And when you look at all the college students, like the biggest predictor of whether they do well mentally in college is whether they matter or not.

Sarah Milken (00:32:35) - And I think what's important in especially right now for us, is midlife women who are going through all these different psychological changes, kind of like a second puberty, if you will. It's like, remember when you were in puberty and you didn't know who your friends are and you weren't sure? And sometimes you had a seat at the lunch table, and other times you didn't have a seat at the lunch table. And I think at this time in our lives, like we're starting to question a lot of the same things, it's like, who are our friends? Are our old friends still our friends? Now that we've realigned certain things? Are we are we in need of friendship audits? Are we in need of new connections and kind of just rethinking everything that's happening? Partnerships. Your spouse like being a new empty nester or a half empty nester. It's like you're spending a lot more time with your spouse. So that's like a whole other thing of like reevaluation. And I think there's all these different components at the midlife table.

Sarah Milken (00:33:36) - It's like nourishment, mentally, physically doing the dumb fucking weights. It's relationships with your friends, making new friends and trying new things.

Cathy Heller (00:33:49) - And I think it gets to all get so much better because you're so much more in your skin than you were at 20. Totally. You're so much more authentic. And I heard someone once say, and I've been saying it, that you'll never meet someone who's authentic and grateful, who's not happy. If you have those two things authenticity and gratitude. And we're so thirsty to be authentic. So if you really become authentic now in the realest way with yourself, with your friends, with your spouse, that is way better intimacy in those relationships then who you thought you had to be when you were 20, where you were pretzel ING and gum being yourself into so many different ways to please or to belong. And now you don't have to. So there's so much more joy. And you and I were talking about that the other day that Dan Buettner said, there's like that you curve where you actually you get happier as you get older.

Cathy Heller (00:34:51) - But then there is that, that, that, um, that, that low point almost because you're, you're aware in your midlife that you have. Certain amount behind you and certain amount ahead of you. And I think we have a lot of limiting beliefs about what's what's no longer possible. And we have a lot of limiting beliefs about how we're not as far ahead as we want to be. And I think you're also, you know, been really honest about what it means to change your role from mom to full time being a mom all day long when your kids are home to something else. My kids are still little. Um, but I can only imagine because I my daughter's 11 and I already worry like about how that feels just to think of her leaving. And that's only like six, seven years away. Um.

Sarah Milken (00:35:46) - I know I have Jake. I'm like, dude, I haven't heard from you for three days. And then he sends me. I told you today earlier, he sends me a text, a picture of himself and two friends, and I go, is this from fucking today? Or like three days ago? Like, I need to know that this picture is current.

Sarah Milken (00:36:04) - And he was like, we're at class right now. I'm like, okay, that makes me feel a lot better because it 1:00 in the morning. I can see him last night because he hadn't responded to me in two days. And I'm like, where are you? I'm so not used to that. And I don't want to be a stalker. But at the same time, I'm like, you want me to buy you a plane ticket to come home? You want a haircut, but you're not saying anything else. Yeah, but no news is good news. And he's really happy, and I can't complain, but I'm just like, whoa. But the point is, I think, look, I think especially in this time in our lives, my first podcast episode guest was Angela missourian, who's a good friend of mine, and she's 5 or 6 years older than me. And she said, Sarah, one of the most important things that I learned in this whole journey, this midlife journey, is that we all need to have a personal board of directors and like to really stop and think, like, who is on my personal board of directors right now? Can I name five people? My husband, two friends.

Cathy Heller (00:37:09) - This is so huge because when James Clear came on to talk about his book Atomic Habits, I said, what's the most important habit? And he said, at that point, the book had been out for a few months. And he said, people have asked me that question, and I always say, I don't know. And he said, but now that you asked me that, he goes, I know what the answer is. It's who you spend time with. Yeah. He said, because you become the people you spend time with. And therefore if the people you spend time with have a healthy perspective and a good way of eating and treating each other, you take on those habits. And so that is part of what I think is the greatest gift of having, you know, allowed myself to lean into podcasting and writing books is my friendships are so different. The women who I am friends with are go getters. They're loving, they're courageous, they're empathetic. They have real big dreams, and they give so much.

Cathy Heller (00:38:06) - And we support each other in a way where it's so equitable and reciprocal, and we learn from each other and we trade notes together. And we we all have really good habits. And you literally become that. I also want to say about midlife that one thing that I just did this summer is I literally threw a grenade into my marriage. And I think something that I can't believe I was just texting a friend this outside before I got on, and it was voice noting her. I said, I don't even recognize my marriage right now. It's so good that I don't recognize it. It's not I can't it's like it's like somebody came in and changed it. But we're in. We look the same. It's so different that I'm honest to God, I. I can't believe it because I was in such a different place four months ago. But what I did, which I think we can do, and you don't have to do it the way that I did it. But I do think that there are moments where you sit down and you reevaluate.

Cathy Heller (00:39:03) - With the intention. You can have either intention to blow things up or you can have the intention to completely remodel. But I think at that point in your life you get to say, what am I doing here? And what relationship do I want with myself, with my health, with my spouse, with my kids? And I'm going to co-create something completely different, as opposed to just being unconscious and playing these roles and not setting boundaries or not asking for what you want. Because maybe, just maybe, at this point, if you come to the table, as you would say, with your truth and authenticity and with the willingness to open up to a greater possibility, maybe you can make it so much better. Why do you have to just accept it as it was? So I mean, I'm sitting here and I'm like, my husband's going on some like Writer's bootcamp next week with Adam Carolla. He's going away for four days. Then he's going on a men's trip to Israel for 14 days. This is all his life.

Cathy Heller (00:40:02) - He's back at work and he's also writing a script. And he's. And I'm like, who are you? Like? It's he's happy. He's in flow. He's doing his thing. He's funny. Like our sex life is is so much better than I don't even understand it. And I was literally but I was willing to throw a grenade. I was and I said to him, whatever this is, I'm breaking up with the dynamic completely. This dynamic is done. I can't do it one more day. And I didn't even know what was on the other side of that. But isn't that exciting that I can sit here and tell you? I mean, I was sitting in Yom Kippur services going, I don't even understand this, this life. And it's amazing. You know, they say relationships, when they get stronger, it's because they actually rupture and then repair. We don't sometimes let them rupture. Like sometimes you have to allow it fully say it all, get it out, you know, and then you're like, okay, like, is this strong enough to repair itself? And oh my god, it's literally like a different.

Sarah Milken (00:41:02) - But you also had a husband who was willing and open to listen to everything you had to say.

Cathy Heller (00:41:06) - Yeah, that's.

Sarah Milken (00:41:07) - True, that's true. And he was very open to it. I don't know if every husband or spouse would be as open, like he's a very kind, gentle soul.

Cathy Heller (00:41:16) - Yes. Thank you. He is. But but I mean, who knows what's lurking there. You don't know what's underneath. I mean, maybe there is something better. I don't know, I think. Go ahead. There's just a lot of unfulfilled people. And sometimes we just I think women in general, we do such a bad job sometimes of asking for what we need. Like, you know, I've said this so many times, but how many times have you have you picked up this message of being a good girl? Like, you want to be nice and pleasing and be sweet and it's like, but you are good and nice and pleasing, and you're also alive. And you also have you have a need and you need to say it.

Cathy Heller (00:41:56) - And I think sometimes because we were doing so much, then we overcompensate and we're like, oh, well, you know, I guess, you know, I should just kind of swallow this here or take this one for the team. And that's over time that builds up a lot of shit for women.

Sarah Milken (00:42:14) - We can't do we can't do that anymore at this point, because I feel like, like you and I talked about the other day, this U-shape where it's like you're kind of happy and your 20s and your 30s and then like your midlife, you're down here. And then they show that at the end of life you're back up to the top. But you have to do a lot of work down here to make sure that you get back up here. So like we say, it's like I see my parents and I'm like. Why didn't they work out more? Because they didn't know. Yeah. You know, like I see my parents and like, they don't, you know, it's like they don't move as easily as they used to.

Sarah Milken (00:42:51) - And I'm like, God, what are the things that, like, I could be doing now in my life to make my 70s and 80s better because like, my husband, like, we're going to be 50 when our kids, both our kids are out of the house, like, that's a long runway left and a favorite.

Cathy Heller (00:43:09) - Thing that you're doing. And we talked about it yesterday. I said, what do you want right now? And you were like, something for me that just makes me feel significance. And I think that that's so important. I think every that's, that's really like my thesis of life is that every person has a purpose, a unique way that they know they came to the world to fulfill some kind of potential. And it drives us crazy when we don't feel we're being significant in that way.

Sarah Milken (00:43:38) - Like, and then when your kids move out of the house, if you have kids, then your significance starts to like, dwindle. You're like, am I relevant anymore? If that visible, if.

Cathy Heller (00:43:49) - You haven't, see, for me, and this is what was such a hidden blessing, is that because my mom was really not, she wasn't doing very well. I knew it was like a warning. It was like I knew that having kids meant I had to have something for myself, or I would. I could possibly become like that where her gifts were dying inside of her. So that was a hidden blessing. And I teach that, you know, I'm always saying to people, even if you just do it like an hour a week, like find your passion and make sure that you, you know, Ethan Hawke gave this TEDx talk about creativity and it's really worth watching. And he talked about his grandmother, and he said that his grandmother wrote this, this memoir for her own children, just in the hospital as she was dying about her life. And she had lived to her 90. And she'd gone through like two world wars and lost a husband and had all these kids. And he said, with all of that, it was like a 30 page document that she wrote to give us over the lessons of her life.

Cathy Heller (00:44:52) - And he said, would you believe? And I'm paraphrasing, so I don't remember exactly, but this will get the point across. He said, would you believe that out of 30 pages, 11 pages were about one summer when she sewed costumes for for a local theater and he said, you know what I got from that 11 pages out of 30? Because that was the one summer that was for her, that was just for her. That had nothing to do with being a mom or being a wife and all of those things that she valued so much. But that was just for her. And and that was his message is like, it doesn't matter, you know, for for what we're talking about right now, it's amazing. There's nothing like being a parent. There's nothing. There's nothing like it. But that's not the point of this. This conversation is about for you, for your soul. There are those costumes and you need to sew them. And that's got to be on the plate, you know, and you have like a balanced meal.

Cathy Heller (00:45:45) - You got to get that on the plate. And even if that's not going to be, you know, as big of a portion as being a parent or being a wife, it's got to be on the plate. And it's so powerful that just that one summer showed up for 11 pages. So that's where you can see you don't even need to do this 40 hours a week. But what you're doing right now, having a if you can just get yourself a little bit of that going where there's something you do in your week, it's three hours a week and it's not.

Sarah Milken (00:46:14) - Even like starting a business. Like I always say, I have friends who play basketball and play mahjong, and they have friend groups, and these women get together every single week, and they focus on these games and their friendships and their connections. And it's such a beautiful, life changing experience. It just.

Cathy Heller (00:46:32) - Is. Yes. And also, I think that there's also this like, yes, having fun. But also I would say even if it's not a business, something in your life that you feel you gift to the world.

Sarah Milken (00:46:44) - Well, I think the creative expression like for me it's I make a bazillion dollars for my podcast, but for me, like the Instagram and the creating the podcast episodes, that's my outlet of expression. That's what I'm saying exactly.

Cathy Heller (00:46:59) - We need that. We need to feel like we are giving that gift away in some in some way, shape or form. Yeah. I mean, I was talking to Gretchen Rubin about this years ago, and she, you know, she's been in the pursuit of happiness. And she was a very unhappy person. And so she went on a journey to try to figure out what makes people happier. And she said she would talk to adults and do this research. And she said there was such low hanging fruit. Like she would say to someone, you know, what made you happy when you were a kid? Oh, playing cello. When was the last time you did that? They'd say 24 years ago. They should say to somebody else what may what was the thing that always, you know, if you had free time, what would you do? Oh, I'd read children's literature like Anne of Green Gables.

Cathy Heller (00:47:41) - When was. Last time you did that. 45 years ago. So she said, I realized that when we got to a certain point called growing up, we took everything that makes us genuinely happy and just said, well, that's not productive or that's not important. And then what do we do? We look constantly for ways to fill that part of us. When you were a kid, all you wanted to do was fill your time with those things and build forts outside and make up, you know, plays with your friends and, you know, just just because not because mom's going to hang it on the fridge. Just because it feels good to finger paint and we we lose out. And that's why I say just have some fun, have a sense of humor about it. Like make something. If you're interested in making cheesecake, just start making cheesecake. Just see what happens. Just have fun with it. Even if you give it away to someone, just start playing with it. Make a pineapple cheesecake.

Cathy Heller (00:48:35) - Make a coffee flavored cheese.

Sarah Milken (00:48:37) - Just remember, like our kids. Well, your kids are too young. Maybe, but my age. Kids. They used to make slime.

Cathy Heller (00:48:43) - Oh my kids. Oh my.

Sarah Milken (00:48:45) - God. We had, like, we had to buy all the special glue and target and the glitter.

Cathy Heller (00:48:50) - Literally a bucket of glue that's like this.

Sarah Milken (00:48:52) - Oh my.

Cathy Heller (00:48:53) - God. Big. We're still in the slime phase because.

Sarah Milken (00:48:56) - Oh my god, like Michael's Arts and crafts. But it's but like looking back on it now, like even the live event I had, I had a jewelry making woman come and like just the act of making necklaces and bracelets without our phones, without distractions being fully present, right. There was such a gift in our regular, everyday lives.

Cathy Heller (00:49:21) - I said today on a call, one of our calls for our membership. I said, you know, when you think about that future self, that version of you that you really want to be and you get so distracted from it, right? Because your mind takes you in some kind of like Zombieland with all these old thoughts and you think the way you thought yesterday, and then you just don't do anything.

Cathy Heller (00:49:38) - And it's like a. You go unconscious. But when you think about that future self, I said, what is that quality of life look like? And people are like, oh, that version of me, you know, she takes walk, she has lunch with her friends, she has more balance. I'm like, okay, so then what does that require? It requires making little decisions now that you are going to be her. And that's it. And it's time. And then you're very clear when you think about your future self that you want to be, you're like, yeah, that version of me, she makes time for all the things that you and I just talk about and you're like, okay, so then note to self, don't get off this call and just go scroll Instagram for the next five days because there's a life that you intentionally, deliberately want to craft. And what I do is here's what I do is I put it on the calendar, so it's done. So the only reason that I have a certain amount and there's still plenty of work to do, but a certain amount of fulfillment is because it's on the calendar.

Cathy Heller (00:50:37) - It's like I'm doing two podcast episodes here. We're going on this vacation here. These people are coming for Shabbat dinner here. I booked myself a massage once a month. It's on the it's on the calendar. I wake up, I'm like, don't have to go unconscious because I know where I'm headed today and I build my life around certain pillars. It's like I'm I'm signing up to volunteer for this thing for my kids school, because I know it'll then put it on my calendar that I'm at that school more than I would be if I just go unconscious.

Sarah Milken (00:51:04) - I think, like planning glimmers in your week, like you said, where you know that on, you know, Tuesdays you're going to do this and on Thursdays date night it makes the week less monotonous and you have something to look forward to, whether it's my course or dinner with your spouse or whatever it is. When we. And because I used to always say to my daughter, like, why do you pre-plan everything? And she's like, because I like to know all the different things I have going on in my week.

Sarah Milken (00:51:34) - And she's a teenager. And so I was like, when Jake left for college, I was like, okay, fuck. I got to like start putting things in the calendar like dinners with other half empty nest moms lunches, these things that I wasn't doing before. And now they're the glimmers in my week. Like even tonight, doing this was so fun. It's so fun.

Cathy Heller (00:51:55) - That's why I said I'm like, I'd love to do it because I prioritize doing things like this because we need to. We absolutely need to.

Sarah Milken (00:52:03) - I want to thank Kathy so much for being here. So welcome.

Cathy Heller (00:52:07) - It was so fun to be with you.

Sarah Milken (00:52:09) - So fun. And I hope I see all of you guys again really soon. You too.

Cathy Heller (00:52:16) - Thank you guys for the awesome time. I'm going to go make dinner with my kids, make some slime.

Sarah Milken (00:52:20) - Thank you. Talk soon. Hey peeps, it's me again. You know how much I love golden nuggets because I can't remember shit in mid life. So here we go.

Sarah Milken (00:52:34) - These are the golden nuggets from my live podcast recording with Kathy Heller. Golden nugget number one Kathy's five things she can't live without Kathy shares five things, including friends, a good blow dry, a Shabbat dinner, a good book and music. Golden nugget number two the most important habit you need to have. We talk about how the people you spend time with influence your habits and behaviors, so choose wisely. Golden nugget number three planning glimmers. In your week. We talk about the need for pre planning activities to make the week less monotonous, less like oh my God, the same thing again and create things to look forward to. Like a dinner with a bestie or a couple times a month, or Friday lunches with your husband like I do. Golden nugget number four making decisions now to create the future self we want. I don't know how many people who are in their lives right now want to stay exactly where they are for the rest of their lives. Research says that every 5 to 7 years we strive for more or something different, something novel.

Sarah Milken (00:53:45) - We all have goals, and we want to make those small decisions in the present that align with our future selves that we want to become. We want to be more involved. Mom at a kids school. Make it a point for signing up for activities. If you want to spend more time with friends, maybe you sign up for a club or a mahjong thing or pickleball. Make your future self stay accountable by making a small step right now. Golden nugget number five allowing relationships to rupture and repair. Kathy and I chatted from experience about the idea that relationships can become stronger by allowing them to rupture and grow in ways we never thought possible. If you want to change your relationship with anyone, your partner or friends, you have to speak up and tell that person what you want and you both grow. From that point on, the gold is dripping off these nuggets. Grab it, use it. There are three things you can do. First, fucking subscribe to the podcast. Second, share it with some friends who might like midlife shit.

Sarah Milken (00:54:48) - And third, write an Apple review. Writing reviews is really annoying. It's an extra step, but guess what? It really helps the podcast grow. Do you think your little review doesn't matter? But it does. If you went to a show and everyone said my clap doesn't matter, there would be no clapping. You all matter. DM you know, I always respond and of course follow my Instagram at the flexible neurotic duh. Love you talk soon.